New entry level catamaran from Lagoon, FP and R&C?

[thinwater]

If you go to a boat show these days (Annapolis) the size of the boats is staggering. There are very few boats shown in the size range that was once normal. The smaller boats are, for the most part, multies and sport boats.


The reason? Why would a manufacture want to compete with the thousand is excellent used boats on the market? The only way to stand out is to go really big or go really sport. Makes perfect sense, and I expect it to stay that way until the current glut of really good used boats is consumed or they get older.



Another dynamic may be that the average age of boat buyers is going up. Older buyers have more money, generally speaking.


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But it is still funny to consider a 40-foot cat with a watermaker and gen set "entry level." It is what the market wants, and it's a smart choice for the live aboard, but it's not entry level. A Gemini is entry level. Not sayin' that's what you want.

[Piscis]

You are probably right.

Maybe i should specify it more in detail and my entry post was not clear enough in those points. Even if the description says "New entry level catamaran from Lagoon, FP and R&C?"

Sure there are a couple of manufactureres that offer 30-35 foot cats, very reasonably priced. Like the Aventura 34, Broadblues, IS and Maincats. I had most of them on my list for a while, but they acctually never fit most of my presets.

Until last year, the lowest priced Cats from the big 6 manufacturers (FP, Lagoon, R&C, Catana/BALI, Seawind and Nautitech) are those 38-40 foot boats. And they all sell for about +/- 300K€ base VAT excluded (while the Lagoon was on the lower end and the Seawind/BALI now on the higher end of the pricelist). For me, even a low optioned cat would have been out of my budget.

It was a nice surprice that Beneteau introduced with the new Excess brand a Modell (XCS11) that enters the Market well below the existing "Entry Modells". Not much smaller than the existing Modells, but priced well below those boats. .

So next to the XCS11, i was wondering if the other "big 6 boatbuilders" will come up with a similar, new, lower priced Entry Level Modell of their already existing product line... not much smaller. Excess showed them: It´s possible!

John

[harlem24]

The thing is, the XCS boats are in a way Lagoons with different helm positions.
In my opinion the XCS 11 is the replacement for the well sold Lagoon 380 that was discontinue last year. But since it was a bestseller they needed to do something.
So they created the new brand and took the Lagoon range a bit more in the pricier range and start off with the 40 instead of the 380.

[Piscis]

Makes sense. So you think there will be no new Modell from Lagoon, competiting with the XCS11?

Just because it comes from the same mother group (Beneteau), doesnt mean Lagoon wants to loose potential Customers. Look at the VW Group. VW, Audi, Seat... they all have a low cost entry Modell and a high priced top Modell. Even if Audi is the top notch brand, they still have a "A1" for little money, competition for the Polo or Golf or...

Same with GM or the BMW Group (Mini vs. BMW 1)...

[harlem24]

Yes, but from what I see, all XCS boats are cheaper then their Lagoon counterparts.
And since apperently all "mass"manufacturers seem to have left the sub 40' boats, at least name wise, Beneteau saw an opening for their new brand.
I don't think that none of the big 4 will go smaller then the 11m of the XCS, so they have something special and a good price.
And taken the VW conparisant, an Audi A1, eventhough the same length of a Skoda Fabia, will always be more expancive.

[EmeraldCoastSailor]

The Excess 11 looks like it meets many of my requirements: dual helms low to facilitate single handed docking, ICW friendly air draft, plenty of aux power, etc. Strange that it only has 79 gallons of water tankage but it looks good. I wonder how much it will cost?

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by EmeraldCoastSailor

The Excess 11 looks like it meets many of my requirements: dual helms low to facilitate single handed docking, ICW friendly air draft, plenty of aux power, etc. Strange that it only has 79 gallons of water tankage but it looks good. I wonder how much it will cost?

The base boat with three cabins is 235.000 eur.

I think this is a quite decent price. I haven't cycled though the options, but the "dream boat" price is obviously quite a bit higher.

[Piscis]

A sales representative in Dusseldorf on the "Boot" handed me over the price and options list.

As stated above, base price is 235.000€

The Boat on display, very well equipped, was something around 350.000€, VAT not paid. A XCS11 very low optioned, but ready to sail, with a not yet negotiated discount was around 250-260K, VAT not paid.

Adding a couple of more, neccessary aftermarket toys and trying to get a better discount might get you this cat for around 270-280K€...

Still don´t know how to get a deal to export the boat outside EU waters to avoid VAT...

Taking possession of the Cat as an EU citizen in EU will add up about 20% to the sales price.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by Piscis

Still don´t know how to get a deal to export the boat outside EU waters to avoid VAT...

Taking possession of the Cat as an EU citizen in EU will add up about 20% to the sales price.

You can buy a boat for delivery outside the EU VAT area ( Canary Islands, Tunesia, Turkey, Gibraltar, ..). You can not officially enter the EU VAT area without paying VAT (well, of course you can do so if you accept the risk that you are caught and fined).

[Piscis]

Thanks rabbi!

Couple of questions:

First on the purchase of the boat. Would a regular charter company or brooker who is in the process of selling a boat could even offer me a delivery let´s say from Split, Croatia (EU VAT Area) to Tivat, Montenegro (outside EU VAT Area). It´s just a few days sail and as far as i know Yacht services in Montenegro are low taxed, if at all...

After having the boat in Montenegro for all kind of work, departing from them to bring the boat to the Seychelles, passing through greek waters, but not clearing in greece, would that be a problem? Does just sailing through greek waters makes me have to pay EU VAT?

Next... how about the status of Turkey? or the turkish part of Cyprus. EU VAT Land? I could not find info on Noonsite and wikipedia states that Turkey do have an arrangement with EU VAT Area...

Very confused...

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by Piscis

Thanks rabbi!

Couple of questions:

First on the purchase of the boat. Would a regular charter company or brooker who is in the process of selling a boat could even offer me a delivery let´s say from Split, Croatia (EU VAT Area) to Tivat, Montenegro (outside EU VAT Area). It´s just a few days sail and as far as i know Yacht services in Montenegro are low taxed, if at all...

After having the boat in Montenegro for all kind of work, departing from them to bring the boat to the Seychelles, passing through greek waters, but not clearing in greek, would that be a problem? Does just sailing through greek waters makes me have to pay EU VAT?

Next... how about the status of Turkey? or the turkish part of Cyprus. EU VAT Land? I could not find info on Noonsite and wikipedia states that Turkey do have an arrangement with EU VAT Area...

Very confused...

I'm not a tax expert, but here is my understanding after reading a lot about it over the years:
Taxation depends on where you take possession of the boat. I guess you could ask the dealer to agree to delivery in Montenegro. I guess most northern European dealers won't do this but someone in Croatia probably.
Why not buy directly in Montenegro, or Turkey, Israel, ...? I know your local dealers will tell you that Lagoon / FP / Leopard dealers have assigned territories and you have to go through them. Just their wishful thinking and nothing stops you from calling a dealer in Montenegro, and tell them you want to keep the boat there.

As a EU citizen with EU residency you can't legally cruise in Greek waters on your own boat with VAT unpaid status. Direct transit should be possible but no leisure cruising. Many do this anyway and get away with it. There is no central register of VAT status for boats and greek / spanish / french customs can't easily validate German VAT papers - and vice versa.
Similarly you can't sail a non-VAT boat that is owned by a company that you control (hard for them to find out for offshore companies but not impossible, just in case you step on some officials toes).
But nothing stops you from sailing a boat that belongs to your sister's offshore company for example. Of course you have a charter agreement!

Turkey is not part of the EU and can't be part of the EU VAT area. But they could have their own taxes.

[Piscis]

Why not buy directly in Montenegro, or Turkey, Israel, ...? I know your local dealers will tell you that Lagoon / FP / Leopard dealers have assigned territories and you have to go through them. Just their wishful thinking and nothing stops you from calling a dealer in Montenegro, and tell them you want to keep the boat there.

I am still not sure if i want to afford a brand new boat or if i will go used.

If i rule out EU VAT countries, like France, Spain or Croatia, i would miss many offered boats on the used yacht market. On top of that, purchasing a boat in the Med would be much more convenient for me in regard of getting my stuff there and mooving on board. Especially when the boat is in Italy, France or Croatia. Easy reachable with a car.

The US market seems much overpriced, compared to the rest of the world. SE Asia market looks very small. Carribean would be a bit too far away from the place i am planning to berth the boat for the first 1 or 2 years. I wouldnt rule the Caribean totaly out if there would be a great deal. However, for me a logistic nightmare...

Direct transit should be possible but no leisure cruising

With "direct transfer" you are talking about e.g. sailing the boat through greek teritoral waters to Turkey without clearing in at a greek harbour? Thats what i mean... Should be possible to bring the boat on a coastal cruise from Montenegro to Turkey (or further down to Cyprus)... without getting into VAT trouble...


So, yes, Montenegro or Turkey (or Cyprus) would be prefered countries for a boat purchase. But at the moment i see more potential Cats in EU VAT Land... i dont want to miss them on my search.

And here we come back to the new Entry Level Cat from Excess. At this time the 11 looks very interesting to me, and i am still waiting for a response to find out how to proceed on my request on a VAT free purchase of a new boat.

John

[Piscis]

Just talked to the Brooker of a very nice and good priced Cat in Croatia.

"If you intend to take the boat out of EU, it can be exported even if you are an EU citizen and you will not have to pay the VAT. This will not be a problem, we will help you in every step of the process."

Well, that sounds promising.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by Piscis

Just talked to the Brooker of a very nice and good priced Cat in Croatia.

"If you intend to take the boat out of EU, it can be exported even if you are an EU citizen and you will not have to pay the VAT. This will not be a problem, we will help you in every step of the process."

Well, that sounds promising.

Ask him for a signed guarantee that he will pay the VAT out of his own pocket if his advice turns out to be wrong. Not saying it is wrong but in my experience most brokers are as honest as shady backyard car dealers

[carlosproa]

Originally Posted by harlem24

The thing is, the XCS boats are in a way Lagoons with different helm positions.

In my opinion the XCS 11 is the replacement for the well sold Lagoon 380 that was discontinue last year. But since it was a bestseller they needed to do something.

So they created the new brand and took the Lagoon range a bit more in the pricier range and start off with the 40 instead of the 380.

I took pictures at the Miami show in case you are interested. I was pleasantly surprised, lots of boat for the dough, did not care for the soft sliding top, and the folding cockpit bench is OK but need to get used to it. Access to the engine is awesome, the rest of the bot interior is great. My wife loved the head, the seating arrangement in the bow, and the surprising visibility at all points of the boat.