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Old 14-02-2020, 03:43   #46
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Re: New entry level catamaran from Lagoon, FP and R&C?

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Originally Posted by Piscis View Post
"Entry level" is hard to define and for everyone a bit different.

I setup that point for myself as:

- Sizze between 35-40 foot (keeping initial and running costs as low as possible, while still offering enough space for a liveaboard couple)

- Simple and efficient sailplan. Main and Genoa. Maybe Code 0. Thats it.

- All vital important options should be aftermarket installed (Solar, A/C, genset, watermaker. Keeps price down and more easy to maintain by means of DIY)

- I prefer an "as new as possible approach" instead of an "as much waterline as i could afford")

- Ease of maintanance is important in my point of view.

- Comparing acctual prices from the leading cat companies, a base price without VAT and no options is hard to find below 215.000. With minimal sailable equipped, we might go for 255.000 (discount already applied, no VAT). Adding about 35K for upgrades the DIY way, we still approach a 300K tag. Which still looks high for an "entry level" boat. But i guess thats the way it is at the moment.

More competition means lower price. The XCS11 meets a lot of my "entry level" requirements. And seeing more competition and that range might as well have the price tag drop at least a little bit... so i am very interested what you think we will see in the next 2-3 years.

Thanks!

that is pretty much what I was thinking years back when selecting boat. Had luxury of time and picked my attack time that got me current boat at very good price and near new condition. In 6 years had no breakages or anything else seriously bad because boat was relatively low spec and I have added missing options to fit our style and was able to maintain properly and not sail in wind >10 kn above recommended reefing guidelines.

Current (hyper) inflationary environment is not supportive for this approach, but things change, sometimes quick.
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Old 14-02-2020, 03:53   #47
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Re: New entry level catamaran from Lagoon, FP and R&C?

Sos, you are absolutely right... i can make it shiny by myself. LOL

However, most of the boats i am scanning on YW and Co does have a bunch of factory installed extras. Like A/C, genset, watermaker, and on top of that a lot of bling bling options i do not need. Those factory installed options tend to increase the new boat price of, lets say 75.000€. And the seller wants to reflect that in his asking price.

One way thats nice, cause i dont have to install those stuff.

On the other way thats not so nice. Just because the genset, watermaker, A/C on a 6-7 year old boat ist.... 6-7 years old. And they increase the used boat price quite a bit.

My approach: Buy an as new, as low equipped boat as possible for a descent price. Get genset, watermaker and A/C from a free supplier for less and do an DIY install (btw, an A/C is already on hand :-) ).

Advantages on that: Price is much lower than having the OEM stuff, instead of 6-7 year old gear, i have new equipment and i do know the system in and out, because it is installed by myself... just my thoughts...


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Old 14-02-2020, 03:56   #48
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Re: New entry level catamaran from Lagoon, FP and R&C?

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that is pretty much what I was thinking years back when selecting boat. Had luxury of time and picked my attack time that got me current boat at very good price and near new condition. In 6 years had no breakages or anything else seriously bad because boat was relatively low spec and I have added missing options to fit our style and was able to maintain properly and not sail in wind >10 kn above recommended reefing guidelines.

Current (hyper) inflationary environment is not supportive for this approach, but things change, sometimes quick.

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Old 14-02-2020, 04:07   #49
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Re: New entry level catamaran from Lagoon, FP and R&C?

As mentioned before these are "entry level" price Aventura 34.


Another one to look at is the Lady Hawke 33.

Not sure on the price but entry size!
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Old 14-02-2020, 04:34   #50
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Re: New entry level catamaran from Lagoon, FP and R&C?

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As mentioned before these are "entry level" price Aventura 34.


Another one to look at is the Lady Hawke 33.

Not sure on the price but entry size!
Interesting. However, again a bit too small. The 37 would be a better sizze. Just emailed them for a price/options list...
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Old 14-02-2020, 05:54   #51
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Re: New entry level catamaran from Lagoon, FP and R&C?

There's a Lady Hawke 37 for sale in New Jersey, US. It's on Craigslist and been there for awhile. It's also the older style with an open but covered bridgedeck like a Maine cat 38.
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Old 15-02-2020, 03:50   #52
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Re: New entry level catamaran from Lagoon, FP and R&C?

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Just found the first YW entry. Looks like the BALI catspace is not the new Entry Level modell of the line. Price is above the 4.1

Not sure why they created a boat between the 4.1 and the 4.3...

https://www.yachtworld.de/Boote/2020...-sail-3648033/
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Old 15-02-2020, 04:46   #53
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Re: New entry level catamaran from Lagoon, FP and R&C?

Ups. I guess my data are outdated...

Just found out that the 4.1 did get a huge price jump from last year. They now have a base price of almost 330.000€ So the catspace IS the new Entry Level boat from BALI/Catana...

So for me the BALIs are well outside my range...
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Old 15-02-2020, 15:14   #54
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Re: New entry level catamaran from Lagoon, FP and R&C?

We purchased our 2002 Seawind 1000 used in 2006. It had been in charter, and needed some work, but we brought it back to new boat condition. We upgraded electronics, new sails, new outboards, used it until 2018, and sold it for well more than we purchased for in 2006. Overall I am sure we had more invested than that, but OTOH we also had the use of the boat for 12 years.

After a trip from Texas to Bahamas and back, it was my wife in 2018 that decided we should get a bigger boat. More room for guests, longer waterline to make crossings more comfortable, etc. I really like the dual outboards concept, and after being very happy with the smaller Seawind for years, we started looking for a used Seawind 1160 Lite in the US. Despite the boat being introduced around 2015, I have never seen a used Lite for sale in the US. So we ordered a new build, exactly the way we wanted it. Plus I did some electronics and watermaker install myself.

There is an option to buy a base boat without options, and do all of the installs and upgrades yourself. As we wanted to take delivery in Miami and immediately head to the Bahamas for a few months, before back to Texas prior to hurricane season, we were a bit limited on how much time we could take to do this. Plus there were a lot of options the factory did very well, that would be difficult to do as good in aftermarket. For instance, the air con had a section of ducting box glassed in an area, that you couldn't access otherwise. Plus they made some changes to the galley that allowed for a clean air intake, that would be near impossible to go that way after delivery. I also saw a boat where the owner decided to install the electrical panels in a different location because easier to access back, but ergonomically and aesthetically it didn't work as well. Seawind really thought out a lot of this, and my advice is that if you want to do a lot of aftermarket options yourself, go to a boat show and really look over what its going to entail. Doing it not as well, and expecting to command the same price at resale … well, I don't think its going to happen. OTOH, if you enjoy that kind of thing and have some skill, then you can save a bit of money.
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Old 16-02-2020, 02:15   #55
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Re: New entry level catamaran from Lagoon, FP and R&C?

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We purchased our 2002 Seawind 1000 used in 2006. It had been in charter, and needed some work, but we brought it back to new boat condition. We upgraded electronics, new sails, new outboards, used it until 2018, and sold it for well more than we purchased for in 2006. Overall I am sure we had more invested than that, but OTOH we also had the use of the boat for 12 years.

After a trip from Texas to Bahamas and back, it was my wife in 2018 that decided we should get a bigger boat. More room for guests, longer waterline to make crossings more comfortable, etc. I really like the dual outboards concept, and after being very happy with the smaller Seawind for years, we started looking for a used Seawind 1160 Lite in the US. Despite the boat being introduced around 2015, I have never seen a used Lite for sale in the US. So we ordered a new build, exactly the way we wanted it. Plus I did some electronics and watermaker install myself.

There is an option to buy a base boat without options, and do all of the installs and upgrades yourself. As we wanted to take delivery in Miami and immediately head to the Bahamas for a few months, before back to Texas prior to hurricane season, we were a bit limited on how much time we could take to do this. Plus there were a lot of options the factory did very well, that would be difficult to do as good in aftermarket. For instance, the air con had a section of ducting box glassed in an area, that you couldn't access otherwise. Plus they made some changes to the galley that allowed for a clean air intake, that would be near impossible to go that way after delivery. I also saw a boat where the owner decided to install the electrical panels in a different location because easier to access back, but ergonomically and aesthetically it didn't work as well. Seawind really thought out a lot of this, and my advice is that if you want to do a lot of aftermarket options yourself, go to a boat show and really look over what its going to entail. Doing it not as well, and expecting to command the same price at resale well, I don't think its going to happen. OTOH, if you enjoy that kind of thing and have some skill, then you can save a bit of money.
Absolutelly agree on that.

When going that route it is important to reflect your own abilities to do some work by yourself.

You made an important point about reselling the boat after xx years.

Acctually i never thought about the resale value, or even the resale of the boat at all after a certain amount of time... My whole financial calculation is based on "never sell the boat at all". Taking that path, i could always keep on going on with my live if i encounter a total loss due to whatever.

If i would consider selling the boat after lets say 8 years of useage for 50% of the buying price (just a guess), i could recalculate the whole process...

But i ussually do my calculation more on the safe site on not counting on a questionable asset like a boat. lol.
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Old 17-02-2020, 05:20   #56
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Re: New entry level catamaran from Lagoon, FP and R&C?

Just received the price list of the BALI Catspace. I think that is a very nice looking boat with lots of living space inside...

Interesting: The 4 Cabin Version has the lowest base price (298.350€), while the 3 Cabin "Owners Version" has a base price of 306.900€.

The (well needed) Options Pack "Excellence" has a base price of 48.200€.

All those quotes are without VAT.

I guess a low optioned Catspace will approach the 400K mark - VAT not paid.

Off my list...

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Old 17-02-2020, 06:19   #57
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Re: New entry level catamaran from Lagoon, FP and R&C?

Currently sharing the anchorage with a Wildcat 36 in Blackpoint. We've been the smallest cat at 34' in every anchorage since leaving St Augustine. Boats sizes have really exploded I guess driven by the need to have laundry washer, dishwasher, etc, etc.
Unfortunately the wives seem to get boat envy especially quick these days. The reality is that most don't really want to go anyway. A bigger boat just makes the overall experience that's much more costly and probably not any happier.
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Old 17-02-2020, 06:33   #58
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Re: New entry level catamaran from Lagoon, FP and R&C?

Agreed.

I guess i could settle easy at a 36-37 foot cat.

We chartered the MAHE36 a couple of times and never felt that boat would be too small. Its 3 Cabin layout felt much more liveable than a 39 foot 4 Cabin Cat...

I really was surprised about the amount of space the XCS11 had in Dusseldorf. At the moment my favorite, if i would buy a new boat.



Mr. Sharp seems to like that cat very much...
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Old 17-02-2020, 09:01   #59
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Re: New entry level catamaran from Lagoon, FP and R&C?

I really liked the FP Mahe 36 the two times I chartered them. I kinda had the same thinking as part of a plan to move from 35 mono to small cat, until Hurricane Michael destroyed all my nearby marinas. I researched and settled on Seawind as the best choice for me but never pulled trigger. Gemini didnt measure up from build quality and other perspectives but Id bet Id like one if I had one as I generally like all boats.
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Old 17-02-2020, 09:27   #60
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Re: New entry level catamaran from Lagoon, FP and R&C?

Anyone mention the PDQ catamarans? Prout, though smaller mail salon seem good. Ive sailed on some PDQs and thought there were good. Does anyone have any specs on the Gemini? They are supposed to be easy to capsize due to the narrow beam.
On cats under 40, there is no room in the main salon unless it has galley down. Ive sailed the L 380 and L400 and the difference in space in the main salon tells you all you need to know.
I think PDQs are under rated. Dont kill me for saying it, but even the ones with gas engines are easy to use, maintain, and have lots of room in the cabins and main salon...watch out for the back deck though. There should be a railing on all of them.
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