New entry level catamaran from Lagoon, FP and R&C?

[Piscis]

"Entry level" is hard to define and for everyone a bit different.

I setup that point for myself as:

- Sizze between 35-40 foot (keeping initial and running costs as low as possible, while still offering enough space for a liveaboard couple)

- Simple and efficient sailplan. Main and Genoa. Maybe Code 0. Thats it.

- All vital important options should be aftermarket installed (Solar, A/C, genset, watermaker. Keeps price down and more easy to maintain by means of DIY)

- I prefer an "as new as possible approach" instead of an "as much waterline as i could afford")

- Ease of maintanance is important in my point of view.

- Comparing acctual prices from the leading cat companies, a base price without VAT and no options is hard to find below 215.000€. With minimal sailable equipped, we might go for 255.000€ (discount already applied, no VAT). Adding about 35K for upgrades the DIY way, we still approach a 300K tag. Which still looks high for an "entry level" boat. But i guess thats the way it is at the moment.

More competition means lower price. The XCS11 meets a lot of my "entry level" requirements. And seeing more competition and that range might as well have the price tag drop at least a little bit... so i am very interested what you think we will see in the next 2-3 years.

Thanks!

[Piscis]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

The Lagoon 42 which is 41' can be bought for around the same base price and about the same price nicely equipped as the SW 1260.

Tanks Sand crab. But both of these boats are far away of what i would consider as "entry level" cats. At least when it comes to sizze and price.

[Shrew]

There is little profit in that range. Manufacturers don't walk away because they are selling too many. They walk away because they can't make any money selling what is being bought.

Sacrificing cost of manufacturing potentially means building light and cheap which can adversely affect perceived quality.

There comes a point where the buyers price-point simply puts them into the used market.

[Sand crab]

I wasn't saying it was entry level and was only commenting on a previous post which mentioned the SW 1260. Perhaps the SW 1000XL would do if they still make it.

[Shrew]

The smallest and least expensive in a line (as compared to others in that line, or similar brands) is typically considered 'Entry Level' regardless of how large and expensive it is.

[joelhemington]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Biggest issue is there is more money in bigger boats.

As long as they can keep the factories busy with 45-50ft models, there will be little interest in smaller boats.

Yep, the trend for most of the premier Cat builders is to go bigger (50' plus) as there is a high market demand for these type boats, with all the bells and whistles, among those that can afford a new Cat. It's beginning to look like the mid 40'rs will following in the footsteps of the mid 30 Cats in the future as the Cat manufacturers get more bang for their buck with the larger Cats. Check out the You Tube channel "Ruby Rose" as they're doing a review of the new Cats and not finding many in their price range with the smaller boats no longer being made.

[sailingchiro]

We have a Lagoon 37. Love that size. Unfortunately, the charter business is getting bigger and bigger. As for me, I would rather charter a smaller cat with just 2-4 people than pile 10 people on a 50 footer.
Our Lagoon was built by TPi of Rhode Island and has a good reputation.
We have a square top main, Code zero, 150 genoa, 120 genoa, and spinnaker. If I had to do it over, I would still by an older cat and refurbish. Teaches alot about the boat.

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by Shrew

There is little profit in that range. Manufacturers don't walk away because they are selling too many. They walk away because they can't make any money selling what is being bought.

Sacrificing cost of manufacturing potentially means building light and cheap which can adversely affect perceived quality.

There comes a point where the buyers price-point simply puts them into the used market.

It's not that they can't make money with those boats, it's that they make higher margins with bigger boats, they've got all the business they can take right now making just bigger boats,and they're hesitant to add more capacity at this point in the economic cycle in order o be able to meet the smaller profit margin demand. That calculus changes quickly when the next downturn hits, at which point breaking even is fine as long as it keeps your workforce with you and fully employed so you're ready to kill it on the next upturn.

[Tin Tin]

Originally Posted by Franziska

Hardly entry level if you look at the price tag.

Just responding to paragraph 5 of the original post. Price tag is relevant to one's financial position.

[Franziska]

Absolutely, but his opening post is rather price focused.

Originally Posted by Tin Tin

Just responding to paragraph 5 of the original post. Price tag is relevant to one's financial position.

[Piscis]

Absolutelly, Franziska. I have to admit ;-)

And Shrew pointed it out right: "There comes a point where the buyers price-point simply puts them into the used market".

I am a potential buyer. And i am at the edge of "buying new or buying from the used boat market". This is why it is important for me if we will see a couple of more "Entry Level" modells below the price of the existing ones from the market leaders. The existing price tags of the +/-40 footish boats are just over my budged.

Basically i would LOVE to buy new. But i have a few premises important to me over buying new...
If i buy new, i do not want to see the boat going into charter business to have it financed. I could do easily. But i do not want that route.

I do not want a loan from a bank to finance the boat. The amount of funds on my account dictates the amount of boat i am willing to buy. It is that easy for me!

I do not want to have to sell my house, rent it out or put a loan on it, to have enough funds to finance the boat.

Those premises are hard to meet with the existing Entry Level Boats from Lagoon, FP or R&C. However, the new XCS 11 is a step in the direction where it might be possible to purchase new (taking into consideration the discount i was already offered on the purchase of a new XCS11).
And i do hope there will be a few more options soon and maybe some more competition from the "Big 5" on the market.

Maybe just wishfull thinking... maybe not ;-)

John

[Lambretta]

It is not directly the size of the margin that is driving the main cat manufactures (Lagoon, R&C, FP etc) to determine what size yachts they build but rather their perception (which seems pretty close to reality) of what the CHARTER market wants, as they all sell in excess of 75% of their yachts to this market. The charter market wants bigger cats as there is a perception of better value for charters to put more people on the yacht gives more value and generally it is family affair or two families (sometimes more) that charter together.

So I think the trick is for a semi custom builder to build a smaller cat to satisfy this need and yes I think there is a market. I tried to find a 42- 45ft cat and could not find one to tick enough of my boxes so ended up going bigger

[rom]

What about this:
https://www.bali-catamarans.com/en/c...catspace-sail/

[Franziska]

A bit boxy in styling for my taste, but than again, I know that smaller boats have issues with conceiving the height issue.

Still there are methods to deal with that issue in a more elegant way.

Originally Posted by rom

What about this:
https://www.bali-catamarans.com/en/c...catspace-sail/

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

I am not sure what currency the Seawinds are priced at originally because of the Vietnam manufacturing. .

US Dollars. 1160 is 310K - 1260 410K, A boat with good high end options probably add another 50K. Boat can be picked up direct from the factory.

Every market destination is different so shipping, taxes are local issues,