New design performance catamarans are heavy - why is that?

[smj]

Originally Posted by Chotu

That’ll be the day. Tell it to the metal workers. Ha ha ha. Months and months and months of talking about how next week will be great.

If it weren’t for the low points in life then you wouldn’t realize what a high point is. I’m guessing you will have a high point coming up that will blow your mind!

[Dave_S]

I look at the images and specifications of performance cruising sailing cats that are made now and wonder what's missing from them that's in the motor sailers enough to make the masses prefer one.

With a good look at the market I think you can have all 3 points of the triangle, speed, comfort, and price so I wonder what the attraction is for the motor sailers ?

[fxykty]

Charter-oriented cats focus on accommodation and lifestyle (same as waterfront and golf course condos). The rig is there because sailing is romantic. People buying these boats are not interested in sailing for the sake of sailing. (All of this is broad generalisation, so don’t reply with n=1 exceptions please. E.g. Cat Impi is an exception)

That’s perfectly OK, and obviously what the majority of the market wants given the relative volumes of boats sold.

We have at least two YouTube couples (Wynns, Clarity) who are selling their Leopards and buying more performance oriented cats so that they can have more fun sailing. SLV decided cats are not enough and are buying a Rapido 60.

[markiobe]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Charter-oriented cats focus on accommodation and lifestyle (same as waterfront and golf course condos). The rig is there because sailing is romantic. People buying these boats are not interested in sailing for the sake of sailing. (All of this is broad generalisation, so don’t reply with n=1 exceptions please. E.g. Cat Impi is an exception)

That’s perfectly OK, and obviously what the majority of the market wants given the relative volumes of boats sold.

We have at least two YouTube couples (Wynns, Clarity) who are selling their Leopards and buying more performance oriented cats so that they can have more fun sailing. SLV decided cats are not enough and are buying a Rapido 60.

It is interesting that the O'Kelly's (who already knew sailing) and the Wynns (who discovered it) are both moving towards performance orientated boats.

And than there's Zatara...

[GreenWave]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Charter-oriented cats focus on accommodation and lifestyle (same as waterfront and golf course condos). The rig is there because sailing is romantic. People buying these boats are not interested in sailing for the sake of sailing. (All of this is broad generalisation, so don’t reply with n=1 exceptions please. E.g. Cat Impi is an exception)

That’s perfectly OK, and obviously what the majority of the market wants given the relative volumes of boats sold.

We have at least two YouTube couples (Wynns, Clarity) who are selling their Leopards and buying more performance oriented cats so that they can have more fun sailing. SLV decided cats are not enough and are buying a Rapido 60.

On the YouTubers in my opinion they are changing their boats because they need a new storyline to keep viewership up. They ran out of things to say and so they upgrade. Sad but true.

[slowNlow]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Charter-oriented cats focus on accommodation and lifestyle (same as waterfront and golf course condos). The rig is there because sailing is romantic. People buying these boats are not interested in sailing for the sake of sailing. (All of this is broad generalisation, so don’t reply with n=1 exceptions please. E.g. Cat Impi is an exception)

That’s perfectly OK, and obviously what the majority of the market wants given the relative volumes of boats sold.

We have at least two YouTube couples (Wynns, Clarity) who are selling their Leopards and buying more performance oriented cats so that they can have more fun sailing. SLV decided cats are not enough and are buying a Rapido 60.

Hope this drives up demand for used performance / daggered cats. :-)

[eneas]

Originally Posted by markiobe

And than there's Zatara...

...and that's where we are finding ourselves with our dilemma - Zatara seems to be doing quite OK in terms of sailing the Privilege and not just motoring. Compared to an Outremer (e.g. Zatara vs Archer ocean crossing), does a "Performance" cat really have such a significant performance gain to outweigh giving up significant amount of comfort and space?

[Happ]

Originally Posted by eneas

...and that's where we are finding ourselves with our dilemma - Zatara seems to be doing quite OK in terms of sailing the Privilege and not just motoring. Compared to an Outremer (e.g. Zatara vs Archer ocean crossing), does a "Performance" cat really have such a significant performance gain to outweigh giving up significant amount of comfort and space?

I’m not an expert on performance cats. I did have the opportunity to sail a Outremer 55X about 600 miles up the east coast. That’s a 60’ boat. I didn’t find anything that said stripped out. It is carbon fiber. It had tillers that were easy to install and a really nice high back carbon fiber chair on each hull when steering with the tillers. Nice. Did it have a wood interior no. Maybe thats what you are describing as luxurious?

The main difference is performance cats are lighter, have drop down centerboards and and different ama designs under the waterline. They are without question faster. If going 10 knots or better instead of 5-6 makes sense to you then consider a performance cat.

[zstine]

Originally Posted by GreenWave

On the YouTubers in my opinion they are changing their boats because they need a new storyline to keep viewership up. They ran out of things to say and so they upgrade. Sad but true.

i have to disagree about those YT'ers. the Wynns cover the destination and not much about their boat and didn't enev cover the purchase or search process. so a new boat is not going to give them much more content. Riley is definitely a speed freak (I mean that in a nice way). doing 20kts in the outremere isn't good enough for him anymore.. needs more speed. And I think they are selling clarity because they want more performance, but of the 3, they will definitely use this to make content

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by zstine

i have to disagree about those YT'ers. the Wynns cover the destination and not much about their boat and didn't enev cover the purchase or search process. so a new boat is not going to give them much more content. Riley is definitely a speed freak (I mean that in a nice way). doing 20kts in the outremere isn't good enough for him anymore.. needs more speed. And I think they are selling clarity because they want more performance, but of the 3, they will definitely use this to make content

The Wynns are very good for travel content, which probably stems from their previous careers and their time in their RVs - the vehicle is a tool to get to cool places and create content. They did however go into detail if their boat selection and buying process, though of course they were sailing noobs so didn’t really factor sailing performance and own preferences for sailing into it. They still don’t exhibit particularly honed sailing skills but they are keen to learn and to create opportunities to sail on other boats with experienced sailors. Their channel documents it all, certainly not just travel. From our grand old ages of 5x we refer to them as ‘the puppies’ - they’re (relatively) young, cute, and enthusiastic. Hopefully they’ll be able to maintain their audience while their new boat is being built.

Maybe the Wynns will be like Ruby Rose and go into excruciating humble bragging detail during their boat build? I wonder whether RR is maintaining their audience without sailing? They certainly lost me. Their sailing and tech was nothing special but the French Canals content was interesting.

My wife follows LVB on FB and according to that they’re keeping their O45 and chartering for guests who want to live the LVB experience. I guess they figured they wouldn’t keep their audience without an actively sailing boat? I’m also wondering whether there’s some sober second thought going on too - the R60 has much smaller accommodation than the O45, especially with 2 and counting kids.

Zatara lost us a few years ago - their absolute rudeness portrayed in their NZ and AU videos and the motoring to windward for three days to get to the Lau Group were standouts. Their cruise comparison with Archer from New Cal to AU was like using the ARC results to compare boats - gentle downwind and reaching allows even rafts to ‘sail’ well.

Clarity is finally stepping out of the Florida-Bahamas shuffle that they built their aspiring cruiser channel on. Now they’re forecasting a circumnavigation and of course their performance cat search - definitely new content to come.

RAN sailing is another one that may struggle to maintain their audience now that they’re pausing to build their dream boat. They may continue with the Sweden travelogue that they began during Covid and the boat building may attract some new viewers but their big voyages are on hold for a few years.

Alluring Arctic is another channel that showed unusual and interesting content in a part of the world not many YT cruisers get to (go Uma!). They’re also in a non-sailing moment as they refit a decrepit Garcia in Southern California (how does a boat like that end up abandoned in a yard for 15 years?), but their plan is only a few months in the yard before sailing back to Scandinavia and the Arctic.

Then there’s NBJS as a nice antidote to all the sailing lifestyle channels out there. He’s my favourite right now.

[Happ]

Originally Posted by GreenWave

On the YouTubers in my opinion they are changing their boats because they need a new storyline to keep viewership up. They ran out of things to say and so they upgrade. Sad but true.

I totally disagree. Sailing Uma started out over 6 years ago buying a boat that was in so big of a need to repair because the keel was actually loose! They took a year to fix it up so they could sail her. They left the dock with $20 in their pocket! They have slowly improved the boat as they had money for it. This couple of kids, yes they are still in there 20’s have now sailed from Florida south to Columbia. Then north to Canada, continuing on to Ireland, then to Scandinavia. Then they proceeded north of the Arctic Circle. Yes they show improvements to their boat. They also have unbelievable adventures in remote area with incredible footage from their cameras and drone.

You should start at their first step and watch these two kids grow as people, sailors and world travelers. It’s an incredible exploration of places and experiences people like you will never experience.

[markiobe]

Originally Posted by eneas

Zatara seems to be doing quite OK in terms of sailing the Privilege and not just motoring.

You clearly see different videos to me.. It seems to me that if the conditions are anything other than perfect they fire up the engines and seem very happy to motor everywhere!! Which BTW is fine, each to their own, just not how a 'sailor' would operate.

Originally Posted by eneas

Compared to an Outremer (e.g. Zatara vs Archer ocean crossing), does a "Performance" cat really have such a significant performance gain to outweigh giving up significant amount of comfort and space?

Depends what you mean by 'comfort'. A boat with narrower hulls and less weight in the ends will typically be more comfortable in its sailing motion. Less hobby-horsing and acceleration/deceleration as it will cut though waves more and be slowed by them less.

Also I think for most people (certainly me) one of the main reasons for a performance cat is a much bigger performance envelope rather than outright speed per se. You can sail when you have less breeze (and others are motoring) and at the other end you are more comfortable at speed (due to the boat design) and can sail faster if necessary.

Another advantage is that you can sail at a given speed with both less sail and a lower centre of effort of the sail plan, making it safer. Also the fact that the boat is lighter and the hulls more easily driven means that the loads on everything are less, meaning that you can downgrade winches, lines, blocks etc, reducing weight and price. It's a virtuous circle.

All of these advantages, plus the pleasure of simply having a boat that sails better, are easily worth the trade-off of less interior space, for me anyway.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by markiobe

All of these advantages, plus the pleasure of simply having a boat that sails better, are easily worth the trade-off of less interior space, for me anyway.

I agree. What do people envisage as less interior space? In my experience most larger cats fill them up with stuff, massive fridges, walk around beds, teak deck, hardwood trim, enormous dinghies that kinda defeats the object of going bigger for performance.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

I agree. What do people envisage as less interior space? In my experience most larger cats fill them up with stuff, massive fridges, walk around beds, teak deck, hardwood trim, enormous dinghies that kinda defeats the object of going bigger for performance.

That’s what I’ve been thinking reading this thread.

Unless you have a giant family, I’m having a really hard time understanding our 50 foot plus Catamaran can be small in any way. These things are enormous as far as boats go.

[Happ]

Originally Posted by markiobe

You clearly see different videos to me.. It seems to me that if the conditions are anything other than perfect they fire up the engines and seem very happy to motor everywhere!! Which BTW is fine, each to their own, just not how a 'sailor' would operate.



Depends what you mean by 'comfort'. A boat with narrower hulls and less weight in the ends will typically be more comfortable in its sailing motion. Less hobby-horsing and acceleration/deceleration as it will cut though waves more and be slowed by them less.

Also I think for most people (certainly me) one of the main reasons for a performance cat is a much bigger performance envelope rather than outright speed per se. You can sail when you have less breeze (and others are motoring) and at the other end you are more comfortable at speed (due to the boat design) and can sail faster if necessary.

Another advantage is that you can sail at a given speed with both less sail and a lower centre of effort of the sail plan, making it safer. Also the fact that the boat is lighter and the hulls more easily driven means that the loads on everything are less, meaning that you can downgrade winches, lines, blocks etc, reducing weight and price. It's a virtuous circle.

All of these advantages, plus the pleasure of simply having a boat that sails better, are easily worth the trade-off of less interior space, for me anyway.

Sorry but downgrading winches and lines are not part of a performance cat. The mast is taller thus they carry larger sail plans. Speed is certainly a benefit, they can also point higher. That means as you pointed out you can sail when others won’t.