New design performance catamarans are heavy - why is that?

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by smj

Yeah, catamaran Impi never sails anywhere [emoji23]

https://youtu.be/Bp6oTLsx-NI
I’m not a fan of the fly bridge cat but to state they never sail is a ridiculous statement.

Well, maybe in your area some are being sailed.

I've just spent 90 days cruising in the beautiful Sea of Cortez, surrounded by Catamarans, dozens of them, mostly charter boats but plenty of owner's boats, and I have yet to see EVEN ONE of these fly bridge cats with any sail up at all.

[smj]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Well, maybe in your area some are being sailed.



I've just spent 90 days cruising in the beautiful Sea of Cortez, surrounded by Catamarans, dozens of them, mostly charter boats but plenty of owner's boats, and I have yet to see EVEN ONE of these fly bridge cats with any sail up at all.

Yes, maybe the west coasters are more into luxury than sailing?
And to be honest, In the Florida Keys I see just as high of a percentage of monohullers motorsailing as multihullers.

[aqfishing]

So, if you have the money and buy a nice boat, you are not a true sailor or cruiser. To be true sailor or cruiser it seems that you cannot own a comfy condo cat, you need to live in a cramped cluttered, tiny, ugly looking boat and stand out in the elements and work hard on your skin cancer.

Screw that!

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by aqfishing

So, if you have the money and buy a nice boat, you are not a true sailor or cruiser. To be true sailor or cruiser it seems that you cannot own a comfy condo cat, you need to live in a cramped cluttered, tiny, ugly looking boat and stand out in the elements and work hard on your skin cancer.

Screw that!

I don’t think that’s what anyone is saying. I think what they are saying is if you are fancy and rich, you should be getting a gunboat, or a Chris White, or an Outremer or something. Because it performs well.

The typical condo cat doesn’t really do well sailing. And if you have all that extra money, why not get a good boat that sails well?

But I’m definitely with you on that skin cancer thing. Wow. I do not have any inclination to be standing outside ever again on a boat after many decades of that. There is no reason to be that uncomfortable in my opinion. Doesn’t bring me any closer to nature.

My boat has an inside helm and all sail controls are going inside too. I’ll go outside when I want to.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by aqfishing

So, if you have the money and buy a nice boat, you are not a true sailor or cruiser. To be true sailor or cruiser it seems that you cannot own a comfy condo cat, you need to live in a cramped cluttered, tiny, ugly looking boat and stand out in the elements and work hard on your skin cancer.

Screw that!

Not exactly,aqfishing, to be a sailor you must sail, or like sailing, or something like that. If you have the money and buy a really nice boat, which does not and cannot sail, but is comfy as hell, and you are happy with permanent cocktail hours and never feel the need to get your hair messed up, or want to sail to just get somewhere (or just for fun), you are not the kind of sailor who is interested in a performance cat. You want a floating condo and you have little in common with the folks who put up with hard core sailing boat because they like the sport of sailing. That's not you, we know it, and it's OK.

[fourlyons]

Originally Posted by Joli

Looking around the harbor (Bequia) about half the boats are Lagoons, FP's or Leapord's with the raised steering station. They all seem to sail everywhere we do. No Gunboats or HH's here.

In my experience the winds in Mexico are much lighter than those in the Caribbean. Perhaps the difference, as Catsketcher mentioned, is light air ability.

[RexSnr]

Lots of discussion on this, but maybe the OP's question is answered if the new "performance" cats are just marketing lies and not performance cats at all?? What actually constitutes a "performance" cat? Where is the line where one switches over? The word is used too loosely these days but no one cares.

I don't believe there is an adequate market for fast cats anymore - probably never has been. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that LUXURY SELLS. I am definitely a fast cat fan and like others will sacrifice luxury for all the benefits listed of a fast cat, but I am also in no doubt that I am an oddity. I have recently sailed on a fully optioned late model 50ft Condo cat across the Pacific. It was definitely not fast, but boy it was comfortable. Sailed just ok with slamming above 10 knots, but it had everything that could be crammed in a boat. Even a diehard like me has to concede that to the average punter, this is the way to go. The comfort made you turn a blind eye to the many inadequacies of the sailing performance.

Not many guys can buy a boat that costs as much as a house and not have to placate his wife? No woman will choose a narrow hulled, maybe galley down, scant internal timber and minimal galley boat. If the bloke wants his yacht, he's going to have to compromise. Let's face it, the Condo cats kill every performance boat in sales volume, multiple times over.

Re the speed of the new ones with their big weights - I would be amazed if any modern "performance" yacht could get anywhere near an older Schionning, Catana or Outremer. New Schionnings are still fast but they don't sell 100's of boats per year. "Performance" is just a marketing word now. Everyone seems to use it. It amuses me what they claim as "performance" now. It appears as though putting the description on a boat is a recipe for big price premiums. Maybe they are fast compared with other newer boats, but I doubt they could outrun the oldies.

But, the world has changed.

My understanding was Catana were struggling to survive. They capitulated with "if you can't beat them, join them." Their Bali cat is appearing everywhere - they are clearly doing very well with it. How many performance Catana's have they built this year? People don't buy them anymore. Condo cats have saved them. The makers have got to go where the money is and fast cat buyers will be further confined to building one off custom cats, until they too, die out.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Not exactly,aqfishing, to be a sailor you must sail, or like sailing, or something like that. If you have the money and buy a really nice boat, which does not and cannot sail, but is comfy as hell, and you are happy with permanent cocktail hours and never feel the need to get your hair messed up, or want to sail to just get somewhere (or just for fun), you are not the kind of sailor who is interested in a performance cat. You want a floating condo and you have little in common with the folks who put up with hard core sailing boat because they like the sport of sailing. That's not you, we know it, and it's OK.

In my mind, it all depends. If you're sailing for the fun of sailing, by all means get out in the weather for a few hours and enjoy. It's a great feeling. But if sailing to get somewhere, or otherwise on the boat for long periods of time, I'd rather have the option to get out of the weather if it doesn't bring much performance compromise.

On a cat that already has some kind of enclosed space on the bridge deck, building in enough visibility to see the sails, see around you, etc. and routing the controls inside shouldn't compromise performance compared to leaving the controls outside. Don't forget that we're in the modern world, where you can always mount a camera somewhere to get another angle of view on the sails if desired. Skip the dumb flybridges and such, those don't belong on a sailboat and they force design compromises (like having to move the boom up higher).

But remember this: it's a common thing to comment on how much time many sailboats spend motoring instead of sailing. The easier and more comfortable the boat is to sail, the more most people will sail it (instead of saying "we just want to get there today, screw it, let's just motor").

[Joli]

Originally Posted by fourlyons

In my experience the winds in Mexico are much lighter than those in the Caribbean. Perhaps the difference, as Catsketcher mentioned, is light air ability.

Possibly true but they are sailing here. We're now in Tyrrel Bay Grenada and although the majority of the fleet is monos the cats that are here did sail.

The problem with light air sailing is often sea state. If it's rough enough with little breeze we all motor. Two years ago we waited for a tropical storm to pass by. When it was over we had 2~3 knots of breeze and a large confused seas, so we motored. Six hours later we were back in the breeze and sailed the next few hundred miles into Charleston. I guess that's my bewilderment with electric boats, sometimes it's better to motor.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by ozolli

Well, I've been unprotected for more than 40 sailing years and still wanting to be there and not under a roof.

What boat do you sail?

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by RexSnr

Lots of discussion on this, but maybe the OP's question is answered if the new "performance" cats are just marketing lies and not performance cats at all?? What actually constitutes a "performance" cat? Where is the line where one switches over? The word is used too loosely these days but no one cares.

I don't believe there is an adequate market for fast cats anymore - probably never has been. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that LUXURY SELLS. I am definitely a fast cat fan and like others will sacrifice luxury for all the benefits listed of a fast cat, but I am also in no doubt that I am an oddity. I have recently sailed on a fully optioned late model 50ft Condo cat across the Pacific. It was definitely not fast, but boy it was comfortable. Sailed just ok with slamming above 10 knots, but it had everything that could be crammed in a boat. Even a diehard like me has to concede that to the average punter, this is the way to go. The comfort made you turn a blind eye to the many inadequacies of the sailing performance.

Not many guys can buy a boat that costs as much as a house and not have to placate his wife? No woman will choose a narrow hulled, maybe galley down, scant internal timber and minimal galley boat. If the bloke wants his yacht, he's going to have to compromise. Let's face it, the Condo cats kill every performance boat in sales volume, multiple times over.

Re the speed of the new ones with their big weights - I would be amazed if any modern "performance" yacht could get anywhere near an older Schionning, Catana or Outremer. New Schionnings are still fast but they don't sell 100's of boats per year. "Performance" is just a marketing word now. Everyone seems to use it. It amuses me what they claim as "performance" now. It appears as though putting the description on a boat is a recipe for big price premiums. Maybe they are fast compared with other newer boats, but I doubt they could outrun the oldies.

But, the world has changed.

My understanding was Catana were struggling to survive. They capitulated with "if you can't beat them, join them." Their Bali cat is appearing everywhere - they are clearly doing very well with it. How many performance Catana's have they built this year? People don't buy them anymore. Condo cats have saved them. The makers have got to go where the money is and fast cat buyers will be further confined to building one off custom cats, until they too, die out.

A true "performance" cat is one that can maintain high average speeds comfortably in most conditions, be able to sail to windward and not have to relay on engines. This is not something that is marketed.


Buying a white tee shirt that cost $100 because it has an advert for a fashion house (who I will not have heard of) blazoned across the front is an anathema to me, but people fall for marketing. I don't own an SUV either "Sports Utility Vehicle" if that isn't the ultimate in "marketing".



Some 25 years ago my wife an I chartered, delivered, begged and blagged rides on about 40 different big cats. I already owned a small cat and was constantly informed of its instability and my madness. The process took 5 years and we visited 7 countries. Big cats were few and far between in those days.


As a result we decided to build a cat that we had never sailed but took a bit of everything we liked or disliked into consideration. It has NO wood, maintenance of useless but "pretty" wood trim is a waste of time and effort. It has only 2 double berths, lounge, dining room, big TV and a truly massive galley "down" that my wife helped design and to build. A fridge, a freezer, washing machine, dive equipment and compressor and fully loaded is still sub 9000kgs.


Would we buy a new production boat today.... No - maybe a couple of exceptions but they would certainly be considered niche.



I fully agree that Bali have pulled Catana from the mire. Real performance costs money the word performance doesn't cost anything. I also know owners that are shall we say disappointed. They were sold teak decks as an extras, they were sold the dream not a boat. Commercial builders follow the money. The profit margin is better for big boats with lots of stuff. The concept of less is more is a very hard sell.



Ignore sailing, if I was looking to invest in a boat builder I'd put my money into Lagoon (with a careful eye on any class action suits).

[pbmaise]

From the OP " but I believe at the cost of managing a much more powerful boat. Is this a good thing for cruising couples"

In my opinion, no. Heavier multihulls that off set the weight with ever more powerful rigs is not a good thing. There is such a thing is too powerful and too big for a cruising couple to operate.

When I purchased my demasted 65 ft vessel with a 79 ft (24 meter) mast. I learned the couple that owned and sailed it were terrified of the rig. Besides the fact they demasted their rig, there were numerous blocks deformed under the extreme loads.

I made the mistake of trying to first replicate their rig and paid a similar price. (Including the 4 broken ribs after the first demasting.) It wasn't years later that I converted to a greatly depowered smaller rig that my stress levels and cost of ownership went down. That was when I began to enjoy sailing.

So I think it is fine to have a big heavy multihull with all the bells and whistles. Provided the cruising version considers 12 knots is fast enough. Wouldn't 95% of monohull sailors consider 12 knots to be fast enough?

Regarding pointing, I discovered that I could point at about 20 degrees into the direct wind using the mainsail. That is, when I was motorsailing. The mainsail helped increase the performance and despite sailing at 20 degrees into the wind I still averaged very good fuel economy.

Of course you endure lots of laughter when you have a big vessel with a small easy to manage rig. To that my reply is the expense of the larger rig was not worth it.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by pbmaise

From the OP " but I believe at the cost of managing a much more powerful boat. Is this a good thing for cruising couples"

In my opinion, no.

When I purchased my demasted 65 ft vessel with a 79 ft (24 meter) mast. I learned the couple that owned and sailed it were terrified of the rig. I made the mistake of trying to first replicate their rig and paid a similar price. It wasn't years later that I converted to a greatly depowered smaller rig that my stress levels and cost of ownership went down, that I began to enjoy sailing.

Agree... I see so many couples, in particular, who are nearing retirement and the go buy a 50 ft plus production cat. Most have no idea of how to sail it and join a RTW rally in the misguidedly, IMO, belief that there is safety in numbers. Many end up being disappointed and the boat is back on the market after a couple of years or becomes a dock queen having ticked the RTW life list entry. This is very obvious when you visit the far east marinas, Singapore, where there are multiple pontoons with identical production cats. These are for image not sailing.

[Happ]

Originally Posted by fxykty

As an owner of an older performance cruising cat, designed in the early 90s for owner operators and liveaboards with the conservative build materials and technologies of that era, I’m very curious about the current crop of production performance cruising catamarans. They look to me to be heavy and powerful - very different than our classic performance cruising cat from 30 years earlier. This provides much greater accommodation space, but I believe at the cost of managing a much more powerful boat. Is this a good thing for cruising couples?

Our boat has skinny hulls with lots of volume up front (rounded bows), moderate rocker (max hull depth 80cm), relatively low prismatic coefficient (volume is concentrated in the middle third), is relatively narrow (44% overall beam to length), has small accommodation spaces, and a relatively small rig. She sails very easily but in open water needs to be throttled back to stay comfortable (7-10 knots is generally good). Mid-teens are OK reaching and downwind, but in big waves that can result in surfs to the high 20s. Maximum speed we’ve seen in flat water is 24 knots, two sail reaching with an offshore breeze, and our windward hull’s waterline was 20cm up. All time maximum was 29.5 knots. The polars I’ve seen for the boat don’t even go into the 20s.

All that is to contrast with new design cats in the same size range, that is 50-60 feet, 15.5-17m. And also to older designs from guys like Schionning, whose boats even back in the day were wide and powerful. These new boats have polars well into the 20s, much higher prismatic coefficients, and are generally much larger boats all over. I expect that they’re more comfortable at higher speeds in seas due to the added displacement. Certainly, except for the Seawind, they have quite a lot of carrying capacity. Again I ask, for a couple cruising, is the added power a good thing?

2003 Outremer 55L - 16.4m LOA, 7.3m BOA, 0.8/2.4m draft, 19.2m mast, 122m^2 sail area, 7550kg lightship, 11,300kg loaded. And remember, this is an E-glass and vinyl ester build, no exotics anywhere except for foam core furniture, bulkheads and floors.

2020 Outremer 55 - 16.7m LOA, 8.3m BOA, 1.3/2.3m draft, 22m mast, 152/172m^2 sail area, 13,500kg lightship, 18,500kg loaded

2021 Seawind 1600 - 16.1m LOA, 8.1m BOA, 0.6/2.6m draft, 22m mast, 144.5m^2 sail area, 13,600kg loaded (positively lightweight compared to the two others)

2022 HH55 - 16.7m LOA, 8.1m BOA, 1.3/3.3m draft, 24m mast, 195m^2 sail area, 14,700kg lightship, 19,633kg loaded

The answer is simple. People want bigger boats with more load carrying capacity. Do you have A/C? How big is your Refer? How many gallons of water do you carry or do you have a water maker? Add more cabins and more storage in them. All these with the additional piping, venting, cabinetry along with additional equipment add to the load carrying requirement of a boat. To keep the speed you have to change the hull designs. The current thought is more volume in the bows. Add larger sails to maintain performance and you’ve accomplished your mission. Of course larger sail require larger winches. If you use winches what do you care if the mechanical advantage is greater?

I really think you are trying to convince yourself that you have a better boat. Maybe. But having to throttle back at 7knts doesn’t sound like much of a performance catamaran. Just my observation.

[pbmaise]

One thing I found as a consequence of my reduced powered rig was not only was I less afraid of a rig failure, I was far more willing to sail in conditions that kept most sailors in harbor.

In other words, what is the point of having a big powerful rig if you are afraid to take it out to sea.

Another, sailor I met who owned a big trimaran shared my observation that standing on the pilot house in heavy seas to put in a reef isn't fun. The couple that owned my vessel reported, that as a consequence of this danger, they never went to sea unless the main was reefed down already to the third reef.

I should note a big powerful rig with a lousy sail ship is still a liability when the action gets rough. By action I mean sea state and g-forces upon the rigging. Big sticks on multi-hulls represent a considerable weight aloft.

Cats do not suffer a condition that I found aboard trimarans. When there are abeam relatively short choppy waves, each ama is picked up and then dropped suddenly. The mast doesn't like that sudden movement.