Negotiating a new catamaran?

[Tellie]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

here is an idea!

say to seller, new or secondhand, that this cat does not go to weather and you REQUEST discount else you will walk away . I bet you will get 15% discount on above.

Come back and report.

even better- get lagoon bashers posts from CF and read to seller one by one. they will get real soft in price.

Maybe used with an individual owner, but not new. One broker sold 32 new Cats at Miami alone and is almost three years out for delivery. He has a waiting list of people willing to buy out others positions at a premium. The new Cat market clients are a different breed of buyers. You'd be lucky if half of them even knew how to sail.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Tellie

Maybe used with an individual owner, but not new. One broker sold 32 new Cats at Miami alone and is almost three years out for delivery. He has a waiting list of people willing to buy out others positions at a premium. The new Cat market clients are a different breed of buyers. You'd be lucky if half of them even knew how to sail.

it is nothing wrong with taking cat out motor to nice anchorage, drop anchor and have couple days & nights on water. Mast and sails are there to provide cool image and frame for some extra shade.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Tellie

Maybe used with an individual owner, but not new. One broker sold 32 new Cats at Miami alone and is almost three years out for delivery. He has a waiting list of people willing to buy out others positions at a premium. The new Cat market clients are a different breed of buyers. You'd be lucky if half of them even knew how to sail.

It's interesting you say that because in our travels we have found a really high percentage of cat owners that had never sailed before buying their new or new to them cat.
On the plus side it's obvious that people are comfortable enough starting out on large cats as their first boat. It also suggests that it was the cat that prompted them to start sailing and I suspect many if not most of them would not be sailing at all if they couldn't have purchased a cat.

[Saleen411]

Originally Posted by Tellie

Maybe used with an individual owner, but not new. One broker sold 32 new Cats at Miami alone and is almost three years out for delivery. He has a waiting list of people willing to buy out others positions at a premium. The new Cat market clients are a different breed of buyers. You'd be lucky if half of them even knew how to sail.

Wow....32 new cats.

The salesmen I spoke with at the boat show">Miami Boat Show all said the same thing about the cat market...both new and used. One Leopard guy who specializes in used cats told me that reasonably priced newer cats in good condition are selling sometimes in a matter of days.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

here is an idea!

say to seller, new or secondhand, that this cat does not go to weather and you REQUEST discount else you will walk away . I bet you will get 15% discount on above.

Come back and report.

even better- get lagoon bashers posts from CF and read to seller one by one. they will get real soft in price.

Did it work for you?

[Tellie]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

It's interesting you say that because in our travels we have found a really high percentage of cat owners that had never sailed before buying their new or new to them cat.
On the plus side it's obvious that people are comfortable enough starting out on large cats as their first boat. It also suggests that it was the cat that prompted them to start sailing and I suspect many if not most of them would not be sailing at all if they couldn't have purchased a cat.

Agreed. Not all people who buy sail boats have plans of living aboard much less sail RTW. I would venture to say many are just weekend sailors or maybe a month or two at a time sailors looking for maximum comfort. Nothing wrong with that at all. But the demographics of new people getting into this hobby is certainly changing. Maybe it's a bad analogy but it reminds me of my old biker days when Harleys were cool, very few rode them, most riders could rebuild them with their eyes closed, and the bikes and their riders were looked at in a whole different light, almost in awe. Now, with the last three decades of the yuppie biker craze, Harley's have just become overpriced and extremely annoying toys. Good thing there's Cruisers Forum where old crusty guys like myself still feel at home.

[Zzmeyer]

All the manufactures have a detailed price list. I have bought two new French boats in the past decade and had them shipped. I didn’t get large discounts on either. One technique some dealers are using is to add a ridiculously high delivery price. My 50 footer cost about $70k to deliver and commission on the US West coast from France three years ago. Asked for a quote on a new 46 foot cat and was told $170k by the dealer. I also got a quote of $65k for a ship delivered and commissioned Leopard 50 to Florida and a quote of $49 k for the 46 cat from Malta to Florida.

[rabbi]

AFAIK Lagoon factory does not offer any discounts at all beside some reduced boatshow add-on bundles /packages.

Any discount you negotiate comes from the dealer's pockets. So just shop around and ask different dealers for a discount.
I don't see why a dealer should change his discount policy just because the backing factory is sold out. Nothing has changed for the dealer, except that the boats are delivered three years after order instead of 10 months.

In fact a typical European dealer might even see fewer sales, as people walk away due to long waiting lists. So no reason why you should not ask for a discount - if you can accept to wait a few years. Otherwise buy used.

As a result most 1-3 year old Lagoon I see on Yachtworld seem to have a sticker price matching the list price.

But that is only the first wave of price hikes I guess. With hundreds of boats destroyed by Irma there will be far fewer ex-charter cats phasing out of the charter fleets over the next few years. Many will have some hurricane repairs.

So demand seems to be increasing, there is a very limited supply of new cats, and a much reduced supply of used ex-charter boats. This sounds like a sellers market over the next few years.
unless there is a ditch in the economy of course.

[Gr8Jeepin]

Originally Posted by Tellie

It IS a sellers market in new Catamarans. Any discount will be minimal. But the flip side isn't too bad right now either. If you have a used Cat right now that is in good condition it's still a sellers market. I believe if you buy new now that by the time you take delivery that it will be worth more than you will have negotiated to pay for it. I'd also carefully predict that three or four years later if you want to sell you'd probably come pretty close to breaking even or take a small loss that would easily be offset by the time you enjoyed the boat for a few years.

Sellers market or otherwise.... the old saying that anything with a title depreciates, anything with a deed appreciates still applies.

NO way that a boat is going to increase in value. You might be able to say that new boat costs continue to increase so the best value is in a boat 2-3 years old. (which ironically is about the same with cars)

Your BOLD statement makes it sound like an investment opportunity. I love boats, but no way I buy a new one and sell it later for my initial investment.

IMO - bad advice

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Did it work for you?

i purchased boat when no other buyers around - in buyers market so no need to go thru CF and collect lagoon haters posts. Quick and easy purchase without any hidden boat or ownership issues. And big thanks to the broker.

However I can confirm that brokers are chasing me politely to sell as I will likely profit on 3.5 years depreciated boat. Such is apparently demand for Lagoons, unfortunately.

Regrettably, I have different plans. I really like the boat, the size, sailing abilities. Only negative is i have to put up with CF cat/lagoon hating crowd.

Nothing perfect.....

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

i purchased boat when no other buyers around - in buyers market so no need to go thru CF and collect lagoon haters posts. Quick and easy purchase without any hidden boat or ownership issues. And big thanks to the broker.

However I can confirm that brokers are chasing me politely to sell as I will likely profit on 3.5 years depreciated boat. Such is apparently demand for Lagoons, unfortunately.

Regrettably, I have different plans. I really like the boat, the size, sailing abilities. Only negative is i have to put up with CF cat/lagoon hating crowd.

Nothing perfect.....

You don't have to, you can always leave.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

You don't have to, you can always leave.

yeah, i tried, but here and there i find something really useful as i am still relatively newbie.

and when bored, whats better than forum fight to kill time

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by Gr8Jeepin

NO way that a boat is going to increase in value. You might be able to say that new boat costs continue to increase so the best value is in a boat 2-3 years old. (which ironically is about the same with cars)

Your BOLD statement makes it sound like an investment opportunity. I love boats, but no way I buy a new one and sell it later for my initial investment.

IMO - bad advice

If you had a production slot for delivery this year you could sell it for significantly more than you paid for.
Last year you could have ordered at 10% discount on the 2017 list price. Today you could sell this production slot for at least the higher 2018 list price, maybe even with a small premium. All in maybe 15% profit.

BUT this is an exceptional market situation created by Irma. Thats not an investment opportunity - thats gambling.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

Only negative is i have to put up with CF cat/lagoon hating crowd.

it seems to take very little to trigger you. Should I say "seacock" or "fat" or "condomaran" or "failed sealing" or "SA/D"?

just relax !!

[Zzmeyer]

i was very interested in either a new Leopard 50 or FP Saona 47 until I was told when delivery would be made. I was told I could make a refundable deposit so I might do that to hold a slot. Assuming there are others with the same thought, and like me, may exercise that right of refund then a production slot might become available. I have no interest in selling any position I have but wonder whether a production slot is really transferrable. Does anyone have actual experience with doing that? I wouldn't be willing to pay a lot for an earlier slot, but it might make the difference as to whether we buy.