Neel 45 Trimaran

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Polux

That's what I suspected, a Neel 45 costs less than half and the same quality is not to be expected but I would expect that most of the difference was in finish and on the interior..

You expect incorrectly. The Alwoplast Atlantics have more carbon, they are 33% bigger more precise build lighter weight on a per foot basis and greater attention to detail, even down to the hand made composite staunchion bases. I have sailed an atlantic 57 but not a Neel, I have been aboard a Neel and I have visited the Alwoplast factory. My opinion is based on that direct experience. Chris White is an excellent designer and Alwoplast is an excellent builder.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Factor

You expect incorrectly. The Alwoplast Atlantics have more carbon, they are 33% bigger more precise build lighter weight on a per foot basis and greater attention to detail, even down to the hand made composite staunchion bases. I have sailed an atlantic 57 but not a Neel, I have been aboard a Neel and I have visited the Alwoplast factory. My opinion is based on that direct experience. Chris White is an excellent designer and Alwoplast is an excellent builder.

Hard to understand what you mean by: "You expect incorrectly" since you seem to be saying the same I have said: that costing the double of the price it is expected that the Atlantic has a superior quality.

[Tri]

Originally Posted by Polux

For those that eventually think of buying one the best information will be obtained chartering one and have a long talk with the charter operator, that probably will have other multihulls doing the job.

They will be the ones that will be able to provide the more accurate picture about the boat, its maintenance and problems.

Unless the manufacturer does not have enough business but needs to keep the factory running by partnering with small charter companies (sometimes with a stake in equity) to help keep sales up. You then see a lot of boats in charter because there are no (not enough) individual clients (maybe due to quality or design).

I am not sure I would then ask the "sales channel" for advice about the boats quality. I think the videos on youtube give a better indication.

For me the strongest indication though is the fact these videos are online at all because that clearly tells you how the manufacturer handles warranty (otherwise these videos would probably not be there).

A boat is a complex project, we all know that, but if warranty service does not work, I would never buy or recommend a boat (manufacturer).

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Tri

Unless the manufacturer does not have enough business but needs to keep the factory running by partnering with small charter companies (sometimes with a stake in equity) to help keep sales up. You then see a lot of boats in charter because there are no (not enough) individual clients (maybe due to quality or design).

I am not sure I would then ask the "sales channel" for advice about the boats quality. I think the videos on youtube give a better indication.

For me the strongest indication though is the fact these videos are online at all because that clearly tells you how the manufacturer handles warranty (otherwise these videos would probably not be there).

A boat is a complex project, we all know that, but if warranty service does not work, I would never buy or recommend a boat (manufacturer).

I understand what you say but that only applies to a charter company linked with the factory, not to a private operator that owns different multihulls.

Regarding videos on the net and one case boat I remember that some years ago a client posted some horrific facts, in photos mostly, about his new Halberg Rassy. I have no doubt that he was with all reasons to protest and his boat had a big number of defects that were not repaired under warranty (in the end he reached an agreement with HR, after going to court).

I doubt very much that was the norm in what regards the building quality at HR and fact is that HR is a well respected boat builder that makes quality boats.

What I am trying to say is that I don't know if this Neel is a "lemon", like that HR, and the problems are not generalized or if this is just the typical quality of the production. I continue to think information from other owners or from the operator of a charter company (one that owns different types of multihulls) are a good way to investigate this further.

Regarding companies that respect warranty services I have seen problems with almost everyone regarding things that looked obvious to me, from Halberg Rassy to Oyster passing by Tartan and Gunboat, just to name well known high quality brands.

[Tri]

Sure but how are you going to tell if there is a conflict of interest?

Poor warranty service is not a "lemon". Poor warranty service is poor customer focus to presumably save money for "economic reasons" that probably led to poor quality in the first place. Its a question of company culture (and some formerly renowned manufacturers seem to suffer from that change in culture). Some have paid the price for that in the meantime.

The same is true for a company that needs to be taken to court to fix warranty issues. If they handle warranty cases like this they will likely handle your and my warranty case like this as well. For me that would definitely be a company / brand I'd stay away from. Sailing should be fun.

Like said a boat is a complex project. Not the warranty case itself is so much the problem (unless reckless or safety) but how the manufacturer deals with it. I think the videos posted highlight that and I feel sorry for the owner.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Tri

...
Not the warranty case itself is so much the problem (unless reckless or safety) but how the manufacturer deals with it. I think the videos posted highlight that and I feel sorry for the owner.

Yes I agree, not trying to apologize just saying that many brands, some very reputable ones included, don't handle warranty issues correctly. In some cases it come as a surprise to me.

[SM6WET]

It is always easy to think that opinions correct…. It is always easy to think and believe in the one who wins the marketing campaign….
In this case I don’t know what to believe…
I watched the youtube videos so many times and can conclude that the faults are serious and not something made look bad due to close up pictures making it look worse than it is.
I am aghast to the seriousness of the fails and een more so that it is not only 1 off fault but several. Makes me wonder what is not yet discovered.
I have been impressed by the Neel boats for some years and was close on making my order but have been holding back for a while since working with quality in the automotive industry I have experienced the lack of quality in French products so many times not only in Automotive but also marine and other products. I am sure there are French manufacturers who hold good quality standards but my view is from own experiences.
Second and it is almost as bad as worse quality. When the manufacturer don’t want to stand up for quality and correct their faults. It makes things even worse. First if there is no repeatability, capability or any fault mode and effects analysis is done… That is one thing but keeping warranty and service out of it is just dumb.
I too would be interested to know how other Neel owners experienced the quality build of their boats.
I would also be interested to know how Neel and if Neel took on responsibility on the related issues this owner had.

I seriously don’t know what to do now…… I have been in the process on what to buy for over a year now and was pretty sure of ordering a new Neel. Now I don’t know what to do……..
Until I am sure Neel has taken care of their problems I dare not buy one. Is there any similar options?

[lucdekeyser]

When I look at the sail boat industry with my experience in a totally different industry what strikes me is most is 1. a poor attitude towards safety and 2. a low average profit margin. The first in inexcusable but would require a major overhaul of the business culture, not likely to happen soon nor quick. The second puts a superhuman pressure on designers to design in quality while keeping a healthy profit.

Boats are inherently complex projects. To turn these into quality products and make them economically viable given the rather small market size designers can only do three things: simplify, simplify, and simplify. That complicates the work of the designer with an order of magnitude but remains cheaper than foiling the company. But that also puts an almost unacceptable burden on the salesman.

The Neel is conceived by a racer turned salesman to compete with the line of boats he represented before. The gestalt of the Neel does stir the emotions of a segment of that market. While the planform of a trimaran is well established, this boat as a system is way too complex to reach a decent level of quality early enough in the product life cycle given the relatively small market it covers.

I am the last to blame the customer but under these severly constraining atenuating circumstances boat manufacturers can claim, a customer would be wise to choose a design that remains as simple as is barely acceptable.

[jdazey]

Originally Posted by Polux

That's what I suspected, a Neel 45 costs less than half and the same quality is not to be expected but I would expect that most of the difference was in finish and on the interior.

This case can be one of a boat particularly badly made, a lemon, as they are called on the auto industry. I see that they are available for charter and probably if they all were that bad they would not be doing charter.

Contrary to what many people think one of the more demanding task for a boat is doing charter. The boat will be used (and abused) 5 times more than a "normal" boat. For those that eventually think of buying one the best information will be obtained chartering one and have a long talk with the charter operator, that probably will have other multihulls doing the job.

They will be the ones that will be able to provide the more accurate picture about the boat, its maintenance and problems.

A new Neel for $500K? Seems doubtful. There is a 2012 Neel on Yachtworld for $574K asking price. The same boat is listed at $501K as a 2016. There is some funny advertising here. $501K might start the conversation, but I doubt it will get you a usable boat even with the favorable exchange rate.

[Tri]

Originally Posted by lucdekeyser

...



The Neel is conceived by a racer turned salesman to compete with the line of boats he represented before. The gestalt of the Neel does stir the emotions of a segment of that market. While the planform of a trimaran is well established, this boat as a system is way too complex to reach a decent level of quality early enough in the product life cycle given the relatively small market it covers.



I am the last to blame the customer but under these severly constraining atenuating circumstances boat manufacturers can claim, a customer would be wise to choose a design that remains as simple as is barely acceptable.

Just out of curiosity. Have you ever test sailed a Neel 45? I can tell you that the rig has definitely not been designed "by a racer turned salesman" but by a salesman. It is "as simple as is barely acceptable." In my personal view the rig was completely unacceptable and therefor a no-go with regard to Neel - all other factors aside. I think Lagoon has a better performance rig. The rest of the Neel 45 is not "way too complex" but "as simple as is barely acceptable." and to be frank that is just the way I personally like my boats. Simple but fun. I actually liked that about the Neel. However, poor quality has nothing to do with simple and poor warranty service just makes things worse.

Poor quality leads to warranty and that reduces margin substantially, that is why a lot of manufactures try to push warranty to their distributors instead of fixing the root cause.

There are boats (trimarans) out there where you know the boat and especially the rig has been designed by a sailor (racer) and not by a salesman.

I think the problem in the yachting industry is that sailors have become so used to overly priced but poor quality - from left to right - that everybody just seems to accepts that.

Maybe the internet can help change that.

[Tri]

Originally Posted by jdazey

A new Neel for $500K? Seems doubtful. There is a 2012 Neel on Yachtworld for $574K asking price. The same boat is listed at $501K as a 2016. There is some funny advertising here. $501K might start the conversation, but I doubt it will get you a usable boat even with the favorable exchange rate.

This one is from 2013 blue water cruising equipped and has been offered for € 320 000 in the market (for a while).

http://www.caribbean-multihulls.com/...boatID=1187188

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Tri

Just out of curiosity. Have you ever test sailed a Neel 45? I can tell you that the rig has definitely not been designed "by a racer turned salesman" but by a salesman. It is "as simple as is barely acceptable." In my personal view the rig was completely unacceptable and therefor a no-go with regard to Neel - all other factors aside. I think Lagoon has a better performance rig. ....

No, i have sailed side by side with a Neel 45 in light winds upwind and even if better than most condo cats it was not a mach but then my boat is specially good in light wind sailing and upwind.

I saw what one could do on the last ARC, where if there is not a racing division for multihulls (not enough boats inscribed) the fastest were racing and with 0 hours on the engine, as all the others sailboats that were raced.

I was impressed, the Neel 45, on a lighter version that has a Carbon mast and lighter furniture, beat by a considerable distance all the cats, including two bigger and hugely more expensive brand new Outremer 51, one of them aggressively sailed.

I have seen also the boat polars and compared with condo-cats, that is what costs about the same, the performance is much better.

They are not what I call a beautiful sailboat but they are a lot nicer sailing than at the dock and that means something, at least for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sspcxoh-ZJo

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Tri

Just out of curiosity. Have you ever test sailed a Neel 45?.

as far as i can tell that poster has never sailed any multihull anywhere at any time.

[Tri]

Originally Posted by Factor

as far as i can tell that poster has never sailed any multihull anywhere at any time.

No that is wrong, Among others I have sailed two Catana 50 in the last 15 years and now own a DF32. Before buying a DF I have looked at a Neel 45 as a trimaran because I wanted more speed (especially in light winds) and even test sailed it in LaRochelle with Eric Bruneel. I liked the simplistic layout - like said - but the rig is just unacceptable. That is why I have a DF now.

[Spindoctor]

[QUOTE= test sailed it in LaRochelle with Eric Bruneel. I liked the simplistic layout - like said - but the rig is just unacceptable. That is why I have a DF now.[/QUOTE]

What was "unacceptable" about the rig? Please elaborate.