Nautitech 40.2 vs fp Lavezzi 40

[Harry2208]

Never an open helm, we cruised 2 1/2 years full time on a 2008 Lavezzi and had our auto pilot stop working for a time, sure happy we were protected. if you can not find a Lavezzi without the osmosis, find another brand. 2008 had it, it was repaired under warranty but only up to water line. There are many things on the list for a perfect boat, performance should not be that high. Not having good air flow through the cabin (like the Lavezzi has) is more important than performance. The Lavezzi can run circles around a Lagoon 38, think I would get the Lagoon nexted time.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by chris in SG

The N40 has a large oval table and a horseshoe of seats for a charter dinner party of 10 guests. I just took an angle grinder to one corner. It's the sort of mod that becomes less scary when the boat is 10 years old.

These are personal preferences - I hate relying on phone apps for monitoring anything. Phone batteries die, and wifi and bluetooth are weak links in my view, especially for alarms. But since this 'mobile' approach is increasingly becoming the standard (take Victron for example) I suppose I'm in the minority..

Have 6 tablets and 2 seperate router each with an identical wifi network, plenty redudancy. So one of the 6 definitely has battery.
The s7FE is my dedicated nav tablet and semi permanent installed at the helm and an iPad on the navstation too and constantly charged. Raymarine Axiom7+ at the helm but basically only used as monitor when the radar is running for doppler and marpa target tracking.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Harry2208

Never an open helm, we cruised 2 1/2 years full time on a 2008 Lavezzi and had our auto pilot stop working for a time, sure happy we were protected. if you can not find a Lavezzi without the osmosis, find another brand. 2008 had it, it was repaired under warranty but only up to water line. There are many things on the list for a perfect boat, performance should not be that high. Not having good air flow through the cabin (like the Lavezzi has) is more important than performance. The Lavezzi can run circles around a Lagoon 38, think I would get the Lagoon nexted time.

i can see why FP should be faster than same size lagoon, but my experiences with numerous FP's is that our L 400 sails like 1 size larger FP.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

i can see why FP should be faster than same size lagoon, but my experiences with numerous FP's is that our L 400 sails like 1 size larger FP.

Highly doubt that 400S2 is heavy for 40ft, wide hulls and undercanvased.
The only Lagoon that sails well are the 380 and older 440 (really well with some mods, ask sailing impi how) but you need properly cut sails and not the factory crap as with all condos doesn't matter which brand. Rest wide hulls, instable bulkheads with for sailing bad rigs (main cannot do dead downwind as sail touches shrouds at 140-150 degrees, short genua tracks with 130% genua=>old Prout config that only sails acceptable downwind or smaller self tacking with a small main even worse) and significantly undercanvased.
But you get nowhere more living space at anchor for your money then with a Lagoon.
FP has well performing ones, mostly older Lavezzi, Belize, Bahia and even older due low weight to length as well as lot sail area. Newer has more for sailing optimised hulls then Lagoon but you have lame ducks due to weight (eg Lipari, Sanoa...) as well as ok performing ones and rare good performing which are mostly the longest streched models from original mold due to less weight from general structure to length like eg. the Helia 44 which is a stretched 40.

[Mpetri]

As I wrote here in other treads I am truly happy of the performances of my Venezia 42 (and in reality also of my precedent Lipari 41 Evolution of 2014)
Easy to get the wind speed = SOG in quite seastate (don't belive me, simply look at https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...95vcVP6CVunXPJ my personal youtube channel of V42)

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Mpetri

As I wrote here in other treads I am truly happy of the performances of my Venezia 42 (and in reality also of my precedent Lipari 41 Evolution of 2014)
Easy to get the wind speed = SOG in quite seastate (don't belive me, simply look at https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...95vcVP6CVunXPJ my personal youtube channel of V42)

Venezia I believe you, sails really well. What sails do you have Hydranet or Elvstöm Epex?
Lipari no as it's a Lavezzi with 1/3 more weight high up and the same rig.

[Mpetri]

I have good (dacron UK Sail) but old mainsail and jib (2015 said the old owner... I hope...but no real data on this point) and a code-0 in ZL 06 that is aramidic/kevlar sail, really well-cut and new (2024) and of the max possible surface for V42 (71 sqm).
Also the gennaker is the almost the max possible surface for a V42 (111 sqm) and it is new (2023), but in simple nylon (if I remember correctly it is Stormlite); I make the genny to be cut in order to have max performance for beam/broad reach and only good/normal performances when downwind; I am very happy of my choice after 2 years of using it.

My target was to achieve good speed with light wind, and at the moment I am satisfied with code-0 / genny as I can perform with SOG same as TWS almost till 8 knots in little waves/calm sea.

Now the new target which I am focused on, it is to get more speed when the wind should be more than 12 knots so when I use only Main & Jib.
At the moment I can expect at max to get a SOG around the 70% of TWS.
MAy be it is quite good for those old & normal sail.
But it is not an excelent result and I believe V42 can perform better, perhaps in the little tens with 12-14 of TWS and not big waves.
I would like to have this results: maybe I have to change my mainsail/jib to get that result.
In any case, I have to say I am not as good to trim the cat sails as I was in my previous monohulls (20 years of experience); it is only 4 years I sail with cruising cats, so I have to learn more and more by sure... and that is evident, because in some circumstances I can have 90% of the TWS in term of SOG (with incredible 135% display on the Axiom indicator of the speed related to polar values I have installed on) and other times I can't reach 55% of the TWS (always with little sea and with wind around 12 knots).
I MUST understand better & better....

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Mpetri

I have good (dacron UK Sail) but old mainsail and jib (2015 said the old owner... I hope...but no real data on this point) and a code-0 in ZL 06 that is aramidic/kevlar sail, really well-cut and new (2024) and of the max possible surface for V42 (71 sqm).
Also the gennaker is the almost the max possible surface for a V42 (111 sqm) and it is new (2023), but in simple nylon (if I remember correctly it is Stormlite); I make the genny to be cut in order to have max performance for beam/broad reach and only good/normal performances when downwind; I am very happy of my choice after 2 years of using it.

My target was to achieve good speed with light wind, and at the moment I am satisfied with code-0 / genny as I can perform with SOG same as TWS almost till 8 knots in little waves/calm sea.

Now the new target which I am focused on, it is to get more speed when the wind should be more than 12 knots so when I use only Main & Jib.
At the moment I can expect at max to get a SOG around the 70% of TWS.
MAy be it is quite good for those old & normal sail.
But it is not an excelent result and I believe V42 can perform better, perhaps in the little tens with 12-14 of TWS and not big waves.
I would like to have this results: maybe I have to change my mainsail/jib to get that result.
In any case, I have to say I am not as good to trim the cat sails as I was in my previous monohulls (20 years of experience); it is only 4 years I sail with cruising cats, so I have to learn more and more by sure... and that is evident, because in some circumstances I can have 90% of the TWS in term of SOG (with incredible 135% display on the Axiom indicator of the speed related to polar values I have installed on) and other times I can't reach 55% of the TWS (always with little sea and with wind around 12 knots).
I MUST understand better & better....

Bite the bullet and get Elvstöm Epex sails and the main squaretop, that's what I gonna do. If you look at all the performance one, they have at least light a form stable hydranet (or comparable from other brands) and epex are the next level. None of them have dacron. Lavezzi as well as Venezia have slim enough hulls and enough sail area plus a capable double diamond rig but it's import the right sail cut and it keeps the form. Modify the main sail track as there is too much space between the battons and install intermediate cars and lash them to reefing eyes so the luff of the sail is properly straight if you need to. Also modify the genua track making it longer and less angled so you have more genua trimming possibility. Quite cheap but helps a lot to get sailtrimm right.
Just a got a new rig, hamma pro strand regatta rig in 10mm xompact wire instead 12mm standard, saved 1/3 weight (60 kg instead 90) with same breaking strength but compact wire that stretches 20% less, ages better and gets no tea staining due to compact treatment. And best is it's cheaper then 12mm zspar crap as there is a big price jump 10 to 12mm in all the hardware. Didn't wanna go dynema as it's still a cruising cat and have no knowledge about textile rig but squeeze the most out of the existing rig setup.
For downwind plus beam till 90 degrees I have 105 sqm parasailor and and an 8m roundsail for dead downwind.
What angles does your code 0 works?
The epex should do all close hull till 140 degrees in light and stronger winds, from their parasailor and roundsail takes over. The Lavezzi as Venezia can do 180 dead downwind as shrouds are front enough due to double diamond to do 180 degrees without main touching shrouds but I avoid putting the boom extremely out like that as a jibe will be catastrophic. And parasailor and roundsail do a better job with much less risk to rig.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Highly doubt that 400S2 is heavy for 40ft, wide hulls and undercanvased.
The only Lagoon that sails well are the 380 and older 440 (really well with some mods, ask sailing impi how) but you need properly cut sails and not the factory crap as with all condos doesn't matter which brand. Rest wide hulls, instable bulkheads with for sailing bad rigs (main cannot do dead downwind as sail touches shrouds at 140-150 degrees, short genua tracks with 130% genua=>old Prout config that only sails acceptable downwind or smaller self tacking with a small main even worse) and significantly undercanvased.
But you get nowhere more living space at anchor for your money then with a Lagoon.
FP has well performing ones, mostly older Lavezzi, Belize, Bahia and even older due low weight to length as well as lot sail area. Newer has more for sailing optimised hulls then Lagoon but you have lame ducks due to weight (eg Lipari, Sanoa...) as well as ok performing ones and rare good performing which are mostly the longest streched models from original mold due to less weight from general structure to length like eg. the Helia 44 which is a stretched 40.

main shrouds are fine for DDW on L 400. DDW is most sailed angle, i would think. Regarding sail plan, we sail 3kn VMG in 10 kn true against the wind at 31 app in flat water. Size of sails is not that bad. But yeah, my sails are now old now and will be replaced with triradial. Most L400 dont sail well because they are overloaded due to lots of space. We keep it light, that why maybe we can keep surprising pace with larger even sometimes so called performance boats.

[Mpetri]

You do the right thing (IMO) by improving your optimal cruise-performance cat!
I think the Lavezzi ALSO NOWDAYS is one of the best 40s feet cat out there, not only for the performances but also for perfect dimension for a family of 4 (like mine) and for solo-handling (I am often alone when I sail in the weekend)
I was looking for a Lavezzi 40 (and during 2020 pandemic, I had found one in Italy in Sicily, but I was not as rapid as enough in order to get the deal...); so after that missing deal, I bought a L41 (and after 2 years I changed it with my current V42).

For the infos you ask me I can say that the V42 let me get those performances:

Code-0 + mainsail
TWS between 2 to 12 knots of TWS
AWA use: 40° to 115°
Best performances(*): AWA between 45° to 95°
(*)= SOG between 105% to 85% of the TWS depending on the sea state till 8 knots; 80% of the TWS over 8 knots, and progressively less for stronger winds.
Difference between AWA & TWA more than 40° at best!!!

Gennaker + mainsail
TWS between 3 to 16 knots of TWS
AWA use: 60° to 135°
Best performances(**): AWA between 70° to 125°
(**)= SOG between 100% to 75% of the TWS depending on the sea state till 8 knots; 75% of the TWS over 8 knots, and progressively less for stronger winds.
Difference between AWA & TWA about 45° or more(!!) in particular circumstances.

Mainsail + Jib:
TWS over 10 knots of TWS
AWA use: 30° to 160°
Best performances(***): AWA between 42° to 130°
(***)= SOG between 70% to 50% of the TWS depending on the sea state and my ability to trim the sails.
Difference between AWA & TWA about 30° a bit more in particular circumstances.

I try to make a polar file for my V42 (is a on going work) but it is not really accurate (sometimes AXIOM says I perform 136% more that the value in that file...); when it will be more precise I will post here.

Please, can you tell me your performances with the L40?

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Mpetri

You do the right thing (IMO) by improving your optimal cruise-performance cat!
I think the Lavezzi ALSO NOWDAYS is one of the best 40s feet cat out there, not only for the performances but also for perfect dimension for a family of 4 (like mine) and for solo-handling (I am often alone when I sail in the weekend)
I was looking for a Lavezzi 40 (and during 2020 pandemic, I had found one in Italy in Sicily, but I was not as rapid as enough in order to get the deal...); so after that missing deal, I bought a L41 (and after 2 years I changed it with my current V42).

For the infos you ask me I can say that the V42 let me get those performances:

Code-0 + mainsail
TWS between 2 to 12 knots of TWS
AWA use: 40° to 115°
Best performances(*): AWA between 45° to 95°
(*)= SOG between 105% to 85% of the TWS depending on the sea state till 8 knots; 80% of the TWS over 8 knots, and progressively less for stronger winds.
Difference between AWA & TWA more than 40° at best!!!

Gennaker + mainsail
TWS between 3 to 16 knots of TWS
AWA use: 60° to 135°
Best performances(**): AWA between 70° to 125°
(**)= SOG between 100% to 75% of the TWS depending on the sea state till 8 knots; 75% of the TWS over 8 knots, and progressively less for stronger winds.
Difference between AWA & TWA about 45° or more(!!) in particular circumstances.

Mainsail + Jib:
TWS over 10 knots of TWS
AWA use: 30° to 160°
Best performances(***): AWA between 42° to 130°
(***)= SOG between 70% to 50% of the TWS depending on the sea state and my ability to trim the sails.
Difference between AWA & TWA about 30° a bit more in particular circumstances.

I try to make a polar file for my V42 (is a on going work) but it is not really accurate (sometimes AXIOM says I perform 136% more that the value in that file...); when it will be more precise I will post here.

Please, can you tell me your performances with the L40?

When I searched for a cat I somehow missed the Belize and Bahia...today I would choose a Bahia, that's the poor man's performance cat with some easy mods...9t with 46ft hulls and a nice big rig.
Lavezzi is good for 2, for 4 too less payload and then its really slow. 4 definitely your Venezia is better or the Bahia as said would be my choice now for 2 or 4 as additional waterlength just gives you higher hull speed.

Got mine also during Covid. Yes for 40ft and it's price there is nothing in my opinion that sails better, maybe an old catana 411 (but very hard to find a good one, 2 that were at market were crap) is the only in similar price range that's more performance and still liveable. I am 192cm so the old outremer are no option as build for dwarfs....
Just done all the mods after owning it for 3 years and still have the old original sails from 2005...when I bought it in 2021 they were still crispy...former single owner (motorboater who also had a 65ft pershing) looked more at it and slept in the habour then sailing, which couldn't work as stations for the full bimini block 2 of the 3 winches. Tweaked the sails with sailmaker to best ability 1.5 years ago but their cut is just crap. Also swapped out the 17x15 3 blade fixed prop to 18x13 FFOF, original are 12x11 and that allone gave me 2kn from first test sails with the old rig.
With the parasailor from 100 degrees I have a similar performance then yours, yes also have around 40 degrees between AWA and TWA means big leeway due to Minikeels.
My "issue" I want lightwind 40 till 100degrees (especially the 60 till 100 degrees) and that's either adding a bowsprit and get a lightwind 140% genua (looks like what you name code 0) and main/genua with new better cut dacron or hydranet or I get the epex genua and a squaretop main. Both is about the same cost and epex are easier to handle, no sail to store as always rigged and should also give me better close haul if I must.

[Mpetri]

Thanks
Also on my two cats I have done the "minimum upgrade" (so called) so new folding / feathering props, lighting the load, and a 2.3 bowsprit with its whiskers stays on hulls (with the reinforced parts on the hulls).
Those are truly important together with new sails (the engines of a sailboat) and the willing to really trim the sails

Bahia is a very good cats also, but the construction of the two hull in 2 pieces each is not so sure, in my opinion.
I saw personally a Bahia cat with a big and long crack/hole in the center of the hulls base, and somebody said that is not the only one with this kind of big problem.
The skipper told me that that crack/hole has been opened by itself during a normal cruising on Adriatic sea. it was the most scared experience he has lived: Not good at all!
Neither Lavezzi/Venezia/Lipari/Belize... have the same problem reported (as far as I know).

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Mpetri

Thanks
Also on my two cats I have done the "minimum upgrade" (so called) so new folding / feathering props, lighting the load, and a 2.3 bowsprit with its whiskers stays on hulls (with the reinforced parts on the hulls).
Those are truly important together with new sails (the engines of a sailboat) and the willing to really trim the sails

Bahia is a very good cats also, but the construction of the two hull in 2 pieces each is not so sure, in my opinion.
I saw personally a Bahia cat with a big and long crack/hole in the center of the hulls base, and somebody said that is not the only one with this kind of big problem.
The skipper told me that that crack/hole has been opened by itself during a normal cruising on Adriatic sea. it was the most scared experience he has lived: Not good at all!
Neither Lavezzi/Venezia/Lipari/Belize... have the same problem reported (as far as I know).

Well then you shouldn't buy any FP, quality control was and is basically non-existent.
So some are ok build, some lala and few should have never left the factory...the newer the worse overall.
And all have their very weak spots. Belize/Bahia that's known and "the never should have left factory ones" the hull can start to seperate, not so complex to fix but simply don't get one with that issue or one that was properly fix...if not shown till now it's OK.
Lavezzi all have osmosis, early till 2002 build are a catastrophe. And warranty work by FP are a bandaid but no cure means you have to do it again. Bulkheads and stringers are glued with porcelain hard glue while Lavezzi is lightly build and flexes, so sooner or later every Lavezzi has bulkheads and stringers seperating/deattaching from the hull...especially when stringers glued onto gelcoat like 3 were on mine (below the head and not reachable unless you cut floor open so 1000% from factory. Crossmember is fixed with 4 5cm 2mm thick washers, perfect spot to see how the Lavezzi was used...washer still on surface=very light costal use, washers even with laminate=significant use but still only coastal and no heavy weather or washer nearly to visible with hairline cracks all around=heavy offshore use and frequently beaten in heavy weather.
To safe building costs the symmetrically constructed hulls missing bulkheads and stringers (find that on all FP).
Mine has all stringers and bulkheads laminated in with epoxy, added part bulkheads and stringers so both hulls are identical. before 50cm laminate on one main bulkhead/rest glue, now complete main bulkhead+2 part bulkheads laminated in that share the load and can flex with), underwatership stripped completely to inner laminate and completly rebuild with vinylester resin (120l) with 2 till 6 layers of 450g mats partly biaxial. Crossmember (my washers were full above the surface) washers replaced with a 30cm x 30cm 5mm chainplate. In total added 250kg pure structure and structural test revealed +350% strength overall, can now stand with full weight on one keel (standard lavezzi would break appart). Feel that massivly on the rig, also close haul improved by up to 10 degrees with the bad cut original sail. A wave slam damaged revealed all the FP shortcuts and "misconstruction" which are standard today...had a highly skilled boatbuilder fixing all and improving strength wherever possible working together with a top notch surveyor who is a naval architect+racer to fix everything to get max strength and improve saftey where possible...took 9 month and costed the insurance 90kEuro. I done the underwatership with boatbuilders help doing the lamination and supervision of my work to do all right while he fixed all inside. 9 month on drydock was just the right opportunity to redo underwatership once and right plus only cost me 5000Euro material including copper coat.

[Mpetri]

What I ahave to say... UAUU you have done a very big big work, but this work adds value to your cat so you can enjoy it fully!!
I don't have any structural problem on my V42 and on my L41 (ultrasonic inspection has been done on all the laminate and no problem is coming out) may be I am lucky??

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Modify the main sail track as there is too much space between the battons and install intermediate cars and lash them to reefing eyes so the luff of the sail is properly straight if you need to.

FWIW - This is a really bad idea especially if you have a racked mast and up angled boom. The geometry means that the perpendicular distance to the mast, from the clew or leech reef point, is shorter than the length along the boom. The sail will suffer jamming when reefing and it will develop diagonal tension creases depending on halyard tension. This is exacerbated if the mast also has significant pre-bend.