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Old 06-10-2019, 05:25   #1
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My Multihull sail brothers please stop being so Defensive

Come on guys!
Can we all stop being so defensive please.
I, for one would really like any reporting of catamaran capsize to not degenerate into polarised slanging matches.
It is not helpful and detracts from the seriousness of such events.
Surely we are all over the "multis capsize and monos sink" stuff.

I am a great fan of Chris Whites book and it influenced my decision many years ago to purchase a catamaran. I sold that boat more than 10 yrs ago and, would like to get another boat now but, whereas Chris Whites book makes the case that it is extremely rare (or in fact almost impossible is the term used) for a cruising cat to capsize by wind alone, that was written in 1990 and a recent rash of such capsizes has got me feeling a little jittery about another cat as a family boat.
Off hand I can think of half-a-dozen or so that I am aware of in recent times and most were of the type commonly referred to as "performance cruising cats" which seems, in this case, to mean something that can actually sail.

I realise that, as the popularity of cats explodes, this will naturally lead to a corresponding increase in the likelihood of such events, but also multihull design, (and the understanding of how and why capsize happens) has moved on accordingly, and so we would hope, some attempt at mitigation of the danger.

I think we must all agree that the possibility exists that weather events that pose a real risk to the cruising catamaran sailor (who hasn't at all times the mainsheet ready to dump) may occur reasonably regularly. Which sailor hasn't at least some experience of being flattened by an unexpected wind gust or shift in a mono? The same event could have serious ramifications in a multi.
This is obviously what happened in at least a few of the recent capsizes, but the nature of media being what it is, we are rarely able to follow up with the story to try to learn more about how and why these capsizes have occurred and strategies to reduce their likelihood.

As multihull enthusiasts we must move on from the traditional narrative, accept that there are risks and that the results can be very serious indeed.

I can no longer accept the argument that it is almost impossible to turn over a cruising cat.
I can no longer accept that the type of catamaran I can afford will float high out of the water if capsized and provide a livable environment...we have seen enough pics recently to know that in most cases it simply isn't so.
That being said, a big cat would be my preferred vehicle if forced to run downwind in extreme conditions; in my limited experience this seems to be where a monohull is at the most risk.

I just wish that any discussion here remain focused on what we can learn from these events and the sharing of valuable experience-related reactions in similar circumstances.
If nothing else,I think these capsize events have shown that no-one is infallible, it can happen to even experienced captains and to never that believe it couldn't happen to you! So I feel that it is in everybody's interest that any discussions keep that in mind.

Sorry, had my rant.
Peace multihull brothers and sisters...
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Old 06-10-2019, 06:30   #2
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Re: My Multihull sail brothers please stop being so Defensive

The water is not the natural environment for humans anyway, it is always dangerous to be there. Even on land we are not safe.

Lets put the cats aside for a moment and talk about similar stable vehicles, cars for example. Do cars "capsize"? Yes, they can and it happens regulary. And now lets talk about convertibles with canvas roofs. What if they flip over in an accident? People still love them and enjoy them.

We use dangerous things all day long around us with possibly lethal consequences, buildings can fall apart in a earth quake or storm, cars, airplanes, ships, bycicles, scooters, electricity, society, crime. We manage the dangers and try to keep them under control, it's not perfect, but it works most of the time.

There is nothing different to a cat or mono, risks are there, we prepare as much as we can.

Permanent danger threads are part of our lifes, I am not saying don't worry, I am saying be informed and make your decisions.
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Old 06-10-2019, 09:51   #3
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Re: My Multihull sail brothers please stop being so Defensive

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatNewBee View Post
Permanent danger threads are part of our lifes, I am not saying don't worry, I am saying be informed and make your decisions.
(emphasis mine)

i like tris because

1. The floats are microindicators for heeling - when the ama is underwater - you already should have reefed.

2. The most of the weight is centrally located in the boat, making for greater stability.

3. They float high when inverted providing the amas are sealed.

i did my research and i drew my conclusions.

(Funny coming from a guy whose website is about plastic classic leadmines
)
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Old 06-10-2019, 13:17   #4
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Re: My Multihull sail brothers please stop being so Defensive

As an owner of one of these sorts of boats, it's my first choice in that once in a lifetime storm. Bare poles, boards and rudders up out of the water. Get in your bunk and wait it out. Not much more survivability than that.

However, getting capsized by a gust is an issue that needs looking into.
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Old 06-10-2019, 14:55   #5
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Re: My Multihull sail brothers please stop being so Defensive

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Originally Posted by Chotu View Post
As an owner of one of these sorts of boats, it's my first choice in that once in a lifetime storm. Bare poles, boards and rudders up out of the water. Get in your bunk and wait it out. Not much more survivability than that.

However, getting capsized by a gust is an issue that needs looking into.


So, you just lie a hull? Except you have the rudders up?
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Old 06-10-2019, 15:29   #6
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Re: My Multihull sail brothers please stop being so Defensive

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
So, you just lie a hull? Except you have the rudders up?
Now this is whats so hilarious about Forums.

A quick check of CHOTU history produces this......

"I have a Gulfstar 50 sail master."

(from the Re: Old vs. NEW Sailboats for Cruising)

https://sailboatdata.com/storage/ima...er_drawing.jpg

Good luck pulling up the rudder on that one,

BWAHAHAHA.
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Old 06-10-2019, 15:32   #7
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Re: My Multihull sail brothers please stop being so Defensive

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaslug Caravan View Post
Now this is whats so hilarious about Forums.

A quick check of CHOTU history produces this......

"I have a Gulfstar 50 sail master."

(from the Re: Old vs. NEW Sailboats for Cruising)

https://sailboatdata.com/storage/ima...er_drawing.jpg

Good luck pulling up the rudder on that one,

BWAHAHAHA.
Did you consider the possibility he has another boat?

BTW, what kind of boat do YOU have?
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Old 06-10-2019, 15:38   #8
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Re: My Multihull sail brothers please stop being so Defensive

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
So, you just lie a hull? Except you have the rudders up?
There we go to the skidding theories again

He also mentioned boards, I.e. centerboards as well as rudders up. I think itís just as wise as deploying a parachute.

I must agree that the cat owners are very easy to freak out when their choice for multi hull is endangered by other thoughts. I guess some need the ever-repeating drone of non-flipping, non-sinking in their heads to feel okay with their choice, while monohullers just accept that they will sink when they scr&w it up so donít get much excited when confronted with that possibility by other posters
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Old 06-10-2019, 15:40   #9
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Re: My Multihull sail brothers please stop being so Defensive

Just see a Bali 4.5 motoring out of the bay...
to stay with the car analogy brought up: “unsafe in any sea“ comes to my mind...
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Old 06-10-2019, 15:44   #10
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Re: My Multihull sail brothers please stop being so Defensive

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Did you consider the possibility he has another boat?
Well done Mr C , you have just earn't yourself #2 position on my ignore list.
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Old 06-10-2019, 15:54   #11
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Re: My Multihull sail brothers please stop being so Defensive

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Well done Mr C , you have just earn't yourself #2 position on my ignore list.
Oh no, not the 44 cruising cat, he’s gonna be really upset with that
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Old 06-10-2019, 16:00   #12
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Re: My Multihull sail brothers please stop being so Defensive

Quote:
Originally Posted by NevilleCat View Post
Come on guys!
Can we all stop being so defensive please.
I, for one would really like any reporting of catamaran capsize to not degenerate into polarised slanging matches.
It is not helpful and detracts from the seriousness of such events.
Surely we are all over the "multis capsize and monos sink" stuff.

I am a great fan of Chris Whites book and it influenced my decision many years ago to purchase a catamaran. I sold that boat more than 10 yrs ago and, would like to get another boat now but, whereas Chris Whites book makes the case that it is extremely rare (or in fact almost impossible is the term used) for a cruising cat to capsize by wind alone, that was written in 1990 and a recent rash of such capsizes has got me feeling a little jittery about another cat as a family boat.
Off hand I can think of half-a-dozen or so that I am aware of in recent times and most were of the type commonly referred to as "performance cruising cats" which seems, in this case, to mean something that can actually sail.

I realise that, as the popularity of cats explodes, this will naturally lead to a corresponding increase in the likelihood of such events, but also multihull design, (and the understanding of how and why capsize happens) has moved on accordingly, and so we would hope, some attempt at mitigation of the danger.

I think we must all agree that the possibility exists that weather events that pose a real risk to the cruising catamaran sailor (who hasn't at all times the mainsheet ready to dump) may occur reasonably regularly. Which sailor hasn't at least some experience of being flattened by an unexpected wind gust or shift in a mono? The same event could have serious ramifications in a multi.
This is obviously what happened in at least a few of the recent capsizes, but the nature of media being what it is, we are rarely able to follow up with the story to try to learn more about how and why these capsizes have occurred and strategies to reduce their likelihood.

As multihull enthusiasts we must move on from the traditional narrative, accept that there are risks and that the results can be very serious indeed.

I can no longer accept the argument that it is almost impossible to turn over a cruising cat.
I can no longer accept that the type of catamaran I can afford will float high out of the water if capsized and provide a livable environment...we have seen enough pics recently to know that in most cases it simply isn't so.
That being said, a big cat would be my preferred vehicle if forced to run downwind in extreme conditions; in my limited experience this seems to be where a monohull is at the most risk.

I just wish that any discussion here remain focused on what we can learn from these events and the sharing of valuable experience-related reactions in similar circumstances.
If nothing else,I think these capsize events have shown that no-one is infallible, it can happen to even experienced captains and to never that believe it couldn't happen to you! So I feel that it is in everybody's interest that any discussions keep that in mind.

Sorry, had my rant.
Peace multihull brothers and sisters...


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Old 06-10-2019, 16:03   #13
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Re: My Multihull sail brothers please stop being so Defensive

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaslug Caravan View Post
Now this is whats so hilarious about Forums.

A quick check of CHOTU history produces this......

"I have a Gulfstar 50 sail master."

(from the Re: Old vs. NEW Sailboats for Cruising)

https://sailboatdata.com/storage/ima...er_drawing.jpg

Good luck pulling up the rudder on that one,

BWAHAHAHA.

And in the same post, he says: "Many boats, like my catamaran,", so it appears he has at least two boats.


How many do you have?
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Old 06-10-2019, 16:26   #14
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Re: My Multihull sail brothers please stop being so Defensive

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Originally Posted by Seaslug Caravan View Post
Well done Mr C , you have just earn't yourself #2 position on my ignore list.
Ditto. But you're number 1! The only person on this forum who posts so much rubbish I'd rather not see it. (Although Jedi is very much in the running.)

BTW, Chotu does in fact have two boats, one of which is a catamaran with daggerboards and lift up rudders.

Of course it's probably difficult for someone who has never owned a boat to conceive of someone owning two.

Better for you to just keep ignoring facts.
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Old 06-10-2019, 16:34   #15
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Re: My Multihull sail brothers please stop being so Defensive

Quote:
Surely we are all over the "multis capsize and monos sink" stuff.
Apparently not, sad to say.

It's a pity that adults can't enter into civil discourse on some subjects, especially when there is so much to learn on both sides of the design controversy.

Jim
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