My Multihull sail brothers please stop being so Defensive

[tp12]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

It’s funny reading all these posts, it sort of reminds me of a Jehovah witness knocking on your door and trying to make you see the light. Except now you guys do not need to knock on my door, you just appear in my inbox.
I have met 44Cruising Cat and he is a hell of a nice guy, he certainly did’nt try and convert me to being a cat lover nor did he rave on how good they were.
I think people have to stand back and disregard some cat capsizes. That cat capsize with XL2 on the NSW coast sounds more like a bunch of guys flogging the hell out of a race boat rather than a design fault.
Cheers

But have you read The Watchtower! [emoji23]

[NevilleCat]

Yeah I think you're right about XL2. That is an older design race cat with not too much forward buoyancy. I work with a guy who used to crew on her and he says it is definitely possible to sail her bows under. Mind you he was talking about 25-30 knots though!
I had kind of ignored that one in the capsize tally.

[NevilleCat]

Originally Posted by tp12

Another sanctimonious post from you. Your premise is naive and you're claiming to speak for quite a lot of people there, an obvious overreach. Instead of getting fired up why don't you consider why it's naive, I've already said why above, so I won't repeat it.

I can't respect the idea of addressing symptoms, even if it's done in a respectful way, which this isn't. Fix the root cause or accept that there will always be conflict on this subject.

I mean even after this discussion we've had one poster getting sore about the mods getting involved and coming on to whine and another poster comparing 'multis' to F1 cars. I don't know about you but I don't look at Lagoons and think F1 cars, you know. It's just silly.

Yes you are right if by sanctimonious you mean that I am disappointed when each thread gets derailed almost immediately by something that we should be able to move on from.
Certainly I must agree with you in that it is apparently naive anyhow to ask people to refrain from doing so, however I feel that that, a combatitive defensive response in fact is the root cause.
We are aware of most of the foibles of cats and monos.
I have made my own assessments of the various risks and am happy with that. (But am always grateful to get as much info as possible to help mitigate the known risks).
I no longer feel the necessity to constantly justify my preference by deriding the preference of others.
Yes I agree it is annoying when someone leaps straight in with a hackneyed troll but, as in the case of other bullying perhaps we just take a breath and make some attempt to try to ignore it.
Sorry, that is all I'm asking.

[tp12]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

It’s funny reading all these posts, it sort of reminds me of a Jehovah witness knocking on your door and trying to make you see the light. Except now you guys do not need to knock on my door, you just appear in my inbox.
I have met 44Cruising Cat and he is a hell of a nice guy, he certainly did’nt try and convert me to being a cat lover nor did he rave on how good they were.
I think people have to stand back and disregard some cat capsizes. That cat capsize with XL2 on the NSW coast sounds more like a bunch of guys flogging the hell out of a race boat rather than a design fault.
Cheers

I concur regarding 44c, he even let me sail his boat! Very nice it is, too.

[CatNewBee]

Capsizing is really scary, but my bigger concerns are loosing an escape hatch and getting flooded resulting in a list and capsize at heavy seas tha turning upside down by a wave.

I've been sailing on all points of sail in seas of 3m and strong wind and never had yet a feeling the cat may lift one hull out of the water, well the Lagoon is a heavy beast and the missing daggerboards make her slide sidewise and depower on seas at the beam, you can feel it at the rudder.

I agree, overcanvased downwind in breaking waves is the more likely scenario to digg in the bows and flip over than on other point of sail, so slowing down by taking down the sails to bare poles and deployng a drogue or sea anchor in really heavy weather may be the best option to get through it.

[tp12]

Originally Posted by NevilleCat

Yes you are right if by sanctimonious you mean that I am disappointed when each thread gets derailed almost immediately by something that we should be able to move on from.
Certainly I must agree with you in that it is apparently naive anyhow to ask people to refrain from doing so, however I feel that that, a combatitive defensive response in fact is the root cause.
We are aware of most of the foibles of cats and monos.
I have made my own assessments of the various risks and am happy with that. (But am always grateful to get as much info as possible to help mitigate the known risks).
I no longer feel the necessity to constantly justify my preference by deriding the preference of others.
Yes I agree it is annoying when someone leaps straight in with a hackneyed troll but, as in the case of other bullying perhaps we just take a breath and make some attempt to try to ignore it.
Sorry, that is all I'm asking.

I think you need to look up what sanctimonious means. Thank you for agreeing regarding it being naive to ask people to not respond to the regular misinformation and digs that go on and I'll restate why: it's never a long term solution to ask people not to respond to that rubbish without addressing the rubbish in the first place. It may last for a while but it still builds up and people will say something. That's human nature and no amount of getting upset about it will change it. People can see when there's a double standard or bias.

The root cause is that bias/rubbish; fix that and it goes away. The root cause isn't not responding to it, that's not how root cause analysis works.

You'll note I'm not deriding anyone's boat choices. I'm doing the opposite.

Regarding your bullying comment, bullies need to be stood up to, not ignored, or it just continues. No one in their right mind would tell a bullying victim to ignore it.

[tp12]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Capsizing is really scary, but my bigger concerns are loosing an escape hatch and getting flooded resulting in a list and capsize at heavy seas tha turning upside down by a wave.

I've been sailing on all points of sail in seas of 3m and strong wind and never had yet a feeling the cat may lift one hull out of the water, well the Lagoon is a heavy beast and the missing daggerboards make her slide sidewise and depower on seas at the beam, you can feel it at the rudder.

I agree, overcanvased downwind in breaking waves is the more likely scenario to digg in the bows and flip over than on other point of sail, so slowing down by taking down the sails to bare poles and deployng a drogue or sea anchor in really heavy weather may be the best option to get through it.

I'd agree regarding pitchpoling being a real concern. There's some good discussion on this forum and elsewhere regarding the use of drogues and that would be something I'd have on board and be familiar with before attempting a long passage where the weather is less certain. There's even some good discussion on making one of these drogues.

Something I've not really considered would be; what's the least worst option if you don't have the searoom to run and deploy a drogue? Is it head into the waves and sea anchor? Turning might be an issue?

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by NevilleCat

......however I feel that that, a combatitive defensive response in fact is the root cause.

No, it's the inaccurate, insulting, dishonest, trolling posts that are being responded TO that are the root cause.

Moderators could quickly prevent these types of discussion if they could be bothered instead of constantly whinging that people keep correcting inaccurate and dishonest posts.

Originally Posted by NevilleCat

.

I no longer feel the necessity to constantly justify my preference by deriding the preference of others.

Nor should you. But should we all just sit back and allow other people to do so and post absolute rubbish unchallenged?

What if we did, and later someone who had been considering buying a cat read it all, and seeing it unquestioned took it for the truth?

[CatNewBee]

Well, turning is not an issue, you have plenty of time and even a heavy cat is very agile when powered by any means and has xome speed through the water, you can turn between two waves, especially when running downwind.

In a squall I have somewhat overreacted, was sailing to the wind sea condition worsen but was not too bad, wind picked up and almost doubled and I was suddenly way overcanvased. First idea was to start the engines, tack and keep the reefed genoa back and depower more the main behind the genoa, to be able to reef easier. Won't do that again. The autopilot and the engines were not able to keep the course to the wind.

So next Idea was to say, turn around further and go dead downwind, then you can keep the main up to higher wind speeds, and AWS reduces with boat speed. That was easy, 30% genoa out and 1 reef in the main, all sheets close hauled and it turned almost instantly and speeded up, digging the bows sraight into the water. The Lagoon has usually a lot of freeboard, the bows were then really close to the surface and remain there. I can imagine what would happen in heavier seas and stronger winds, the boat was stable, but man, this are forces, speed from zero to 15kn in a few seconds. This mistakes in heavy breaking seas can definitly flip a cat over the bows. So lesson learned. Whatever you do, get the canvas down first and reef early! Sometimes it is even better to use the head sails only when you see something comming or when you sail downwind. Easier to depower shorthanded.

What worked really well in a similar situation was of course going close hauled to the wind as high as possible to depower, furl in the genoa first, go further to the wind then with both engines and get the main down, it helps a lot if you rig a dedicated rope to the main sheet halyard attachment to tear it down from the helm with a winch and prevent it from flattering and redeloying by the wind. You can go then safely on the roof and secure it either with an additional rope or in the lazy bag if necessary. Then either motor to a better course or redeploy some genoa, let her stay back and heave to,.

It is amazing how heaving to calms down the movement of the boat. If you have breaking waves, heaving to might not be good, so next option would be running downwind on bare poles or a little genoa, deploying ropes aft as brakes, or even a drogue.

If the conditions are not too bad yet and slowly building up, but the see is too rocky for climbing up the roof, you can heave to by backing the genoa, ease the main sheet and shield the main behind the back stayng genoa to reef or take it down conveniently easying the motion of the vessel, but there is a point where it does not work any more. A rigged downhauler is really the better option.

Reefing on a downwind course is not easy or may be even impossible in a squall. In moderate conditions, no problem.

[tp12]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Well, turning is not an issue, you have plenty of time and even a heavy cat is very agile when powered by any means and has xome speed through the water, you can turn between two waves, especially when running downwind.

In a squall I have somewhat overreacted, was sailing to the wind sea condition worsen but was not too bad, wind picked up and almost doubled and I was suddenly way overcanvased. First idea was to start the engines, tack and keep the reefed genoa back and depower more the main behind the genoa, to be able to reef easier. Won't do that again. The autopilot and the engines were not able to keep the course to the wind.

So next Idea was to say, turn around further and go dead downwind, then you can keep the main up to higher wind speeds, and AWS reduces with boat speed. That was easy, 30% genoa out and 1 reef in the main, all sheets close hauled and it turned almost instantly and speeded up, digging the bows sraight into the water. The Lagoon has usually a lot of freeboard, the bows were then really close to the surface and remain there. I can imagine what would happen in heavier seas and stronger winds, the boat was stable, but man, this are forces, speed from zero to 15kn in a few seconds. This mistakes in heavy breaking seas can definitly flip a cat over the bows. So lesson learned. Whatever you do, get the canvas down first and reef early! Sometimes it is even better to use the head sails only when you see something comming or when you sail downwind. Easier to depower shorthanded.

I can imagine the forces, pretty full on. Good tip re: headsail only under those conditions.

What worked really well in a similar situation was of course going close hauled to the wind as high as possible to depower, furl in the genoa first, go further to the wind then with both engines and get the main down, it helps a lot if you rig a dedicated rope to the main sheet halyard attachment to tear it down from the helm with a winch and prevent it from flattering and redeloying by the wind. You can go then safely on the roof and secure it either with an additional rope or in the lazy bag if necessary. Then either motor to a better course or redeploy some genoa, let her stay back and heave to,.

Have you seen many downhauls rigged? Most of the boats I sail on a race boats and don't have one. Having said that I haven't raced anything big, say 45+

It is amazing how heaving to calms down the movement of the boat. If you have breaking waves, heaving to might not be good, so next option would be running downwind on bare poles or a little genoa, deploying ropes aft as brakes, or even a drogue.

If the conditions are not too bad yet and slowly building up, you can heave to by backing the genoa, ease the main sheet and shield the main behind the back stayng genoa to reef or take it down conveniently, but there is a point where it does not work any more. A rigged downhauler is really the better option.

Reefing on a downwind course is not easy or may be even impossible in a squall. In moderate conditions, no problem.

Some good experience and options there, thank you. For me, it highlights the need to really think through and understand what types of scenarios you may encounter and have a plan for them.

General question, do many multihullers try to heave to? I've seen comments around suggesting that most can't - maybe it's more a sail balance thing?

[CatNewBee]

I think, all boats can heave to, some do it easier than others.
The 400 is really easy in that, you can do it with the genoa alone, main and genoa or even main sail only. It depends of course on the conditions how much of canvas you need to stay at a comfy angle to the seas.

With the genoa, it is really simple, keep it close, tack trough the wind and let it stay back, full rudder to the wind and lock the rudder. She almost immediately heaves to.

We use this often to have a rest on bumpy seas for lunch, for cooking or whatever when sailing on passage upwind.

Regarding the downhoal line, I have not seen others having one regulary rigged, nor do we, in normal conditions there is no need for it, just more clutter. But on a shorthanded longer offshore passage, where we both are tired after a few days it is a safety option that allows you to get the main down quickly and safely alone if necessary, so we do rig it temporary, it's no big deal, we have an additional block on the mast foot and run the line to the helm, it is an old spare halyard, nothing fancy. Same for boom preventers, we use a dock line attached to the boom to the midship cleets. But I will DIY a dedicated rope for this with a rubber snubber from a dock line to soften the hits on the boom.

Also on dead downwind the genoa is too close to the boom to be efficient, we close haul the genoa first and use the obsolete winward sheet attaching it with a hitch on the midships clew on lee and then easiyng the genua sheet on the winch, so the genua is all way out attached to the clew. You can sail for days in that configuration without adjustments.

To release it safely, just close haul it with the winch and remove the second sheet from the clew.

[Mr B]

After hundreds of miles basically in a straight line,
I played with the main sail and the Genoa out,
using the GPS for speed,
I got an extra one knot with the Main up, Whats one knot to a cruiser,
So I took it down, tied it up and put the cover on it, Never used the main since,
Then I tied the boom off so it couldnt move either, My jack line is under it,

The self furling Genoa is operated from the cockpit, So I dont even have to go out on the front of the boat at all,
Running at about 30 degrees to the wave line I can keep my boat between 5 and 10 knots, Depending on how much Genoa I have out,
Irrespective of wind force and wave height,

Very high winds, about a foot of Genoa out and I drop the drive leg into the water as a drogue,
I do have a drogue on board but never felt the need to use it, I never go fast enough,

Speaking to the sailmaker today who is restitching my Genoa, The stitching on the edges has come adrift after 17 years on the boat,

She said my 150 Genoa was all I should use or needed, I dont need the Main at all,
She did go into detail about it, Explaining why it is so, Very Plausible,
It did confirm my own experience with using the Genoa at sea,
As I didnt know whether I was right or wrong by just using the Genoa, But it did work for me,
My sailing is self taught, You cant do much else in the middle of an ocean,

[tp12]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

I think, all boats can heave to, some do it easier than others.
The 400 is really easy in that, you can do it with the genoa alone, main and genoa or even main sail only. It depends of course on the conditions how much of canvas you need to stay at a comfy angle to the seas.

With the genoa, it is really simple, keep it close, tack trough the wind and let it stay back, full rudder to the wind and lock the rudder. She almost immediately heaves to.

We use this often to have a rest on bumpy seas for lunch, for cooking or whatever when sailing on passage upwind.

Regarding the downhoal line, I have not seen others having one regulary rigged, nor do we, in normal conditions there is no need for it, just more clutter. But on a shorthanded longer offshore passage, where we both are tired after a few days it is a safety option that allows you to get the main down quickly and safely alone if necessary, so we do rig it temporary, it's no big deal, we have an additional block on the mast foot and run the line to the helm, it is an old spare halyard, nothing fancy. Same for boom preventers, we use a dock line attached to the boom to the midship cleets. But I will DIY a dedicated rope for this with a rubber snubber from a dock line to soften the hits on the boom.

Also on dead downwind the genoa is too close to the boom to be efficient, we close haul the genoa first and use the obsolete winward sheet attaching it with a hitch on the midships clew on lee and then easiyng the genua sheet on the winch, so the genua is all way out attached to the clew. You can sail for days in that configuration without adjustments.

To release it safely, just close haul it with the winch and remove the second sheet from the clew.

I'm trying to picture this in my mind, how much overlap on your Genoa?

[tp12]

Thanks Mr B, I appreciate you sharing your experience.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Also on dead downwind the genoa is too close to the boom to be efficient, we close haul the genoa first and use the obsolete winward sheet attaching it with a hitch on the midships clew on lee and then easiyng the genua sheet on the winch, so the genua is all way out attached to the clew. You can sail for days in that configuration without adjustments.

.

We have a "third sheet" (we call it a tweaker) permanently attached to the jib clew. And blocks attached to the midships cleats.

Our normal jib sheet leads are optimized for upwind sailing, so for reaching or downwind they're too far inboard.

But using the sheets and tweaker in combination allows me to basically position the clew wherever I want it. From about 120' to DDW, the normal jib sheet isn't in use, just the tweaker. (We have primary and secondary winches available for this)

Other people rig a tackle to barber haul.