Maintenance costs for an older 41'-45' catamaran

[travellerw]

Originally Posted by fabgo

Thanks Traveller & Prairie Chicken

I have updated the spreadsheet based on your feedback:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

I have removed the mast, hatches and winches from the list, as these do seem to last a very long time. I increased the annual maintenance budget from 20% to 25% to compensate, to accommodate for the odd failure and repair, as well as to account for various odds and ends not listed.

The new yearly long-term maintenance cost is now roughly $15,000, down from $20,000 when I started this thread. Hopefully that brings the numbers more in line with actual costs. I keep hearing my estimates are high.

To Ken and Dave's argument that regular maintenance, rebuilds and repairs can drastically reduce costs - I think that is a point well taken. I see now that it's easy to spend a lot of money upgrading or "buying new".

How about another real world example.. I just redid my "basic" electronics.

1. Wind/Depth/Temperature = $1600 (Triton Kit)
2. Chartplotter = $1200 (Zeus2 7")
3. VHF = $249 (Standard Horizon 2200)
4. VHF Mic = $120
5. AIS = $1100 (Vesper Vision)
6. AIS Splitter = $229 (Vesper)
7. NMEA 2000 Fuel senders = $225 (Simrad, cost for both)

$4723, call it $5000 after extra cables and connectors. I could have done it cheaper, but got bit by the gadget bug. I could have saved about $1000 if I wanted to do the "budget version". I would have had the same basic functionality just not all the flash features (fuel gauges, color AIS display, older Zeus, ect).

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by fabgo

Hi Robert

I tried to estimate costs for full-time long-distance tropical cruising, which is our goal. That's why I originally listing standing rigging & sail replacements at 7.5 years for example.

Best regards,
- Fabian

It all depends. If you buy a 5year old charter cat in the Med the engines may have seen quite some use but the standing rigging has all its life still left. The sails may be worn from neglect and UV but not from heavy use.
A 5 year old long distance cruiser may have pristine engines but worn out sails and heavily stressed standing rigging.

Other than that i'd say that several items are way overpriced and their expected lifetime too short.
A new standard Jabsco toilet runs 200 euro here, not 2000.

[arsenelupiga]

I am at around 40k spent after 1 year purchasing 1.5 year old boat, probably 60% upgrades, but who does not upgrade here and there?!

Boat serves as moving holiday home, so low spec.

main items:

carbon gennaker
anchor
spare parts
2 year DIY engines service
insurance
mooring apparatus
sewing machine and equipment

could not afford it if not DIY especially in AUS.

So, i spent around 8% of purchase price in year 1.

I think 20k pa & cost of money for purchase will have to do.

[a64pilot]

Surely not all used Cats were Chartered?

That seems always to be the supposition, but I bet there are many Marina Queens out there. My boat is not a Cat, but she is a 1987, and the engine had 500 hours on it, and the sails are original, and while not pristine show little wear and are functional. (I'll replace them before we go though) She was obviously a Marina Queen that rarely if ever left the dock, and the systems show very little wear.

There has to be Cats that are older than five years, but with very much less wear on them than an ex- Charter boat.

I initially started looking at boats around five years old based on I did not want a project boat and I figured a five yr old boat wouldn't be. Well what I gradually came to see once I allowed myself to look at older boats is the age isn't nearly the indicator of condition that I though it was, which makes sense if you think about it, these are not automobiles that are driven every day for example.
I saw several five yr old boats that were so worn and badly kept that I wouldn't have it and a few thirty yr old boats that were in like new condition.
It took me awhile to ignore the age pretty much and focus solely on build quality and condition.

I think your numbers are a little high, but a boat that is used hard will chew through more "stuff" than one sitting at anchor and being conservative means there will be plenty of money. Some of us are conservative by nature, we like back up plans and money in the bank.
Personally I do not think a percentage of purchase cost can be used, if that were true then you would be much better off buying a very old worn boat as it would be cheaper to maintain than a new one, and we know that's not true.

[2Hulls]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Surely not all used Cats were Chartered?

No. Hardly.

Dave

[fabgo]

Originally Posted by travellerw

How about another real world example.. I just redid my "basic" electronics.

1. Wind/Depth/Temperature = $1600 (Triton Kit)
2. Chartplotter = $1200 (Zeus2 7")
3. VHF = $249 (Standard Horizon 2200)
4. VHF Mic = $120
5. AIS = $1100 (Vesper Vision)
6. AIS Splitter = $229 (Vesper)
7. NMEA 2000 Fuel senders = $225 (Simrad, cost for both)

$4723, call it $5000 after extra cables and connectors. I could have done it cheaper, but got bit by the gadget bug. I could have saved about $1000 if I wanted to do the "budget version". I would have had the same basic functionality just not all the flash features (fuel gauges, color AIS display, older Zeus, ect).

Thanks! I originally calculated around $6000 for a basic set of electronics, including a couple of multi-function displays, with the idea installing a small chart plotter at the helm and using an iPad or something similar at the nav station for charting. This was based on a quote I got at a boat show. So your numbers are in line with what I originally estimated.

Best regards,
- Fabian

[fabgo]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I think your numbers are a little high, but a boat that is used hard will chew through more "stuff" than one sitting at anchor and being conservative means there will be plenty of money. Some of us are conservative by nature, we like back up plans and money in the bank.
Personally I do not think a percentage of purchase cost can be used, if that were true then you would be much better off buying a very old worn boat as it would be cheaper to maintain than a new one, and we know that's not true.

Yes! That is why I started this project. I kept hearing the 10% figure, which would have put yearly maintenance costs at $40K for a $400,000 catamaran, which is a lot of money. So I needed to figure out a more detailed estimate, before deciding on such a big purchase.

The current estimate, based on the great feedback on this thread, stands at around $15,000 - and I still hear it might be a bit high. So somewhere between $10,000 - $20,000 a year (long term) seems to be in the ball park, depending on boat condition, quality, style of cruising, luck of the draw, and the mechanical aptitude of the owner.

Best regards,
- Fabian

[monte]

Yeah Fab, I think the percentage estimate may work out if you amortise and average the costs from a new boat for over a 20 year period, but I think the more accurate way if using percentage would be something along the lines of
1 yr .5%
2yr 1%
3yr 1%
5yr 5%
10 yr 10%
15yr 15%
20 yr 20%
Obviously if you bought a 10 yr old boat that just had a major refit of all systems, new engines, rig, sails etc, the percentages would adjust accordingly.
Using a percentage system without taking into account the age of the boat doesn't make sense. As an example, a new 40'cat might cost 400K. Using the 10% method that would equate to 40K/ year. A 10 yr old 40' cat might cost 200K and using the same method would equate to 20K/ year. An older boat costing less to maintain than a newer one? I don't think so...

Btw, it's much better to overestimate costs than under estimate so I think you have it well covered. There's always something to spend the leftover $$ on

[travellerw]

Originally Posted by monte

Btw, it's much better to overestimate costs than under estimate so I think you have it well covered. There's always something to spend the leftover $$ on

See that is one of my problems.. No matter what we are talking about, boats, cars, renos, ect. If I sit down and do a budget, then I'm going to spend that amount or more. Even when people say I budgeted too high.

[leftbrainstuff]

Guessing costs is a bit like guessing the length of a piece of string.

Vessel condition has a big impact. If you want a bristol condition vessel then you need to buy a vessel in good condition.

We manage our vessel just like the military manage their assets.

We broadly categorize systems as mission critical, safety critical or other. This determines how much redundancy we need.

Then we categorize them in terms of cruising, sailing, living or safety. Next we prioritize and filter the lists regularly based on funds, time and resources available.

Corrective maintenance for safety critical items comes first, then preventative maintenance and enhancements come last.

Last year, our first year of ownership, we focussed on preventative maintenance and some corrective maintenance.

This year we're focussing on enhancements as we'll be cruising more next year.

We dont use spreadsheets as we have a startup developing our decision making IP, DeZolve, that evolved from our defence and motorsport systems engineering work.

We manage the maintenance, the non destructive testing, condition monitoring, all the work, planning, statusing and budgeting using an agile and lean methodology within DeZolve. As we get through a chunk of work we'll reprioritize the list which takes just a few minutes.

Your list assumes everything fails when expected. That approach is grossly pessimistic. Cost based asset management is not considered best practice.

Condition monitoring over time allows you to predict pending necessary work.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[carstenb]

I can only second 2hulls (dave) input. I feel his aging scenario seems to be on target. As Monte said, all of this will depend on the condition of the boat you buy. I also likehis staggered approach to the percentages

Our boat is 9 years and we are beginning to see some age maintenance issues, but not many. The Previous owner really maintained the boat well and did run it very hard. We run it harder, but I can't see us replacing rigging or masts or spars anytime in the future (and we're going to start an RTW next spring).

We're spending a lot of money on the boat right now - but those are upgrades - not maintenance.

Basically most everything will last a very long time - except perhaps electronics - if for no other reason than you'll see some new stuff with a lot more bells and whistles than what you have (you ALWAYS want more bells and whistles, even if you won't use them )

Godo quality sails should last 10 years if you get your sailtrim right and are religious about covering them when at anchor so they don't get sunlight.