Looking for first Cruising Cat

[valhalla360]

Do you really want performance or the feeling of performance?

A 28' mono with the rail buried will feel exciting but might only be doing 6.5kts.

On a big cat, your wife might be taking a nap on the back deck while you sip you coffee at the helm, all wile doing 12kts.

Which is your idea of performance?

As others said, you need to hit some boat shows and really formulate what you are looking for. Electric drivetrain is just silly unless you are a true purist sailor who refuses to start the engine unless absolutely necessary and in that case several of the models on your list probably drop away because they are designed for cruising first sailing second.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by finleyg

Yes, I agree that my initial choices are widely variant. I also agree that it is unlikely we will deviate from diesel drivetrain initially. With regard to sailing performance, I am used to routinely sailing in excess of 10 knots, but understand that 10 will often be a sort of upper limit. I guess I am looking for a cat which is balanced towards performance but comfort is next on the list. My hope is to narrow the list as much as possible so that I can focus my search. One of the hard parts is that there are varying opinions. I hear on one hand that Lagoons and Seawinds are terribly slow but then other opinions are that Seawinds (esp. the 1160 lite) are quick. I do really like the clean design and lighter weight of the 1160 lite, but it seems to be cramped below (a normal function of finer hulls)... Does this help?

Fin

Not sure that all Seawind layouts are cramped. This layout looks fine to me.

[snort]

Originally Posted by Cavalier MK2

First cruising cat? An orange tabby, easier to see in the waves and on the docks.

Those furry things in the back aren't a cam cleat. Ask me how I know!

I'd recommend chartering a big cat before buying one. I think it takes a while to figure out the pluses and minuses with going that large.
Personally, I'd prefer a smaller cat like the Seawind 1000, but that's just moi.

[Mark424]

Originally Posted by finleyg

I love the pix and philosophy behind the Maine Cat 38. If it's ok, can you give me a short rundown on how the boat has worked for you? Do you have any youtube vids or otherwise? Great lines and I like Mr. Vermuelen's (sp?) design essays.

This is more about my decision process than actual experience since mine hasn't launched yet......

I have hull #3, hitting the water in April. I've been on both hull #1 and #2. Here is video of #2, "Allelu"

Allelu

they were being a bit conservative since the boat had only been in the water a week - double reefed main, cruising at 10 knots. Note there is a little pop sound where water blows through a gap between the engine nacelle and hull - they are modifying the shape. From the owner of #2 on his maiden delivery: "21-22 knots true wind, broad reach, single reef + jib, 3-4' waves , surfing - take off to 15-16 knots". That's pretty sweet, he doesn't even have a downwind sail on the boat yet. Just got an email from him over the weekend as he's going down the south end of the ICW, he was motor sailing w/ just the jib, 10 knots in the ICW, pulling a horizon job on every other boat. (the former racer in me gets a )

I love the comfort of the big charter cats, have chartered many of them, way back to the Privilege 39, FP 35 & 46, Lagoon 38 & 400S2, Catana 47Carbon & 50, MC 30 & 41. Tasman 4000(Aus), I'm sure i'm forgetting some. The Catanas were the only ones that got over 9. Hit 13 twice on each charter. Sailing is a lot more fun at 10 knots +.

Cotemar's boat is just gorgeous, but to get that luxury and decent speed cost big $, I can't afford a big Chris White, Gunboat, or the new Balance 52. The Seawind 1160, Nautitech Open 40, Broadblue Rapier 400, are a bit better at performance than the charter cats, but still a lot heavier than they should be.

A couple factors for me.

• Performance: I don't need to go 15 knots all day long, but I'm a sailor at heart and from time to time want a couple hours in the teens. With a nice Code 0 would like to hit the high teens once in a while for a thrill. Just as important, when it's light air, want to be able to put the sails up and ghost along, if I can do 4-6 in 6-8, that would be great. From the BVI to the remote islands of Tonga, I've seen a lot of the charter type cats motoring when we were sailing.
• View under way: I'm really annoyed sitting in the cockpit and either staring backward or facing forward at the back of the house. They are getting better in the last few years with larger windows, but the reality is that most of the time you are on autopilot, so you want to be able to sit anywhere, lift your head up every 5-10 minutes and look around to look for traffic and go back to reading, chatting w/ friends, etc. Might not seem like a big deal, but if you are on an 8 hour, or 8 day passage, it gets really old having to walk all over the place to get a 360 deg view and check for traffic or hazards.
• Bridge deck: I like the single large area, unless I'm cooking, I'm not inside, so why break up the space into two? You can set up the bridge deck any way you like. Helm forward, helm aft. big chairs, little chairs, table, no-table, there is room to do yoga or have a dance party in there if you want. While other cats can close the cockpit, most are not really great to sail that way, the maine cat is designed to close up, turn the heat on and have a comfy passage.
• Simple and solid: Having done my fair share of repairs of cats while on charter, have seen the some strange stuff, crazy amounts of plywood in the bilges, cheap fittings, stuff broken on boats < a year old, etc. Dick's boats aren't cheap, but after 20+ years in business, his owners all praise the quality and durability. Susan on Tabby Cat has sailed her MC41 to New Zealand and gave a big thumbs up when I talked to her. I always liked to charter bigger and faster boats, after sailing the Catana 50, I finally said, this boat is just too big and heavy for short or single handed sailing to be fun. I stumbled across an old classic book, "Sensible Cruising: The Thoreau Approach", and it really struck a chord on being comfortable and safe, but the downside of getting too big is exponential increase in size of gear, cost, maintenance.

MC38 #2 will be at the Miami boat show in Feb, and as my boat heads south in April/May to get on a freighter for the PNW, you are welcome to try to catch up with us for a sail.

[Camp Director G]

My 2 cents:
I've met Mark (Cotemar) and sailed with him on his previous boat. He is meticulous about his boats and takes outstanding care of them. Several of the things he mentioned are on the top of my list. 1. Island beds 2. Separate showers for comfort and just ease of living. 3. Clear view 4. Easy motoring on one engine. Pretty much everything he mentioned as a pro on the Helia 44 is exactly what I have found that I like after seeing and researching dozens of boats. I also really like the look and setup of the FP Lucia 40 (if you want something smaller - especially if it's just the two of you). Gorgeous boat. You'll find that people have an innate human reasoning to be strong proponents for whatever boat they pick. Rarely do they say otherwise. Their reasoning is sound, but the endless debate is confusing. In my opinion a newer boat (last few years) has the advantage of ever-improving ergonomics, design, safety, etc. For example, look at any boat over seven or eight years old. They have rounded seating. Seemed to bre pretty and was the style a while back. Just try lying down on them for a nap. Worthless. All the new boats have squared-off couches and seating. These improvements, and many others, like the all-important high bridgedeck clearance, are improvements people have been making on cats for all the years they have been produced. Get an old cat, and the clearance is often way too small which makes life and sailing on passages very uncomfortable. (read here: http://www.liveantares.com/pdf/BridgedeckClearance.pdf). If you're just sailing small doses in calm waters, clearance is less of an issue. I would get something recent (you could spend thousands and tons of time fixing up an old boat, but why? Have you ever seen a home improvement show where they didn't run into tons of cost overruns and time wasting trouble?) Get something recent that has been outfitted for whatever you're planning to do. Blue water? Get all the gear you need on a boat that has sailed some miles. Island hopping? You don't need all that crap. Going somewhere hot? Air conditioning is really nice when you're trying to sleep at 90 degrees with 90 percent humidity. Just figure out what you're going to do in general, then find the boat that fits. As for production or one-off? Hard to say, but I lean toward production because there are a lot of other people who have your same boat and can help you. Read Mark's thread on the Mahe 36 for example. That includes videos and blogs on how to fix things, outfit the boat, etc. and there is much more ready trading of parts and supplies, and of course, the builder can sometimes help too. OK, maybe that was 3 cents.

[finleyg]

Mark, thank you so much for the great information. Really helpful! What a beautiful boat. I probably have to lean a bit more toward comfort in order to keep the Admiral happy, but my Corsair was pretty easy to get into the teens and it was a great feeling to do so. I am just at the beginning of serious research (been studying various models for years, but not seriously). I did read the "Thoreau Approach" and am a fan of the Pardeys, my experiences with my personal sailboats has been in favor of simplicity, too (despite my electric propulsion on the Corsair). I am anxiously looking forward to anything you post about your 38 when you get it! If it is possible, I may try to catch up with you to crew for a little on your run down the coast!!

[finleyg]

CampDirector:
Also great info! I like your reasoning (clearly worth 5 or 6 cents!) I'm going to read the threads you identified and check out the lucia. I held off posting on this subject for awhile but after seeing countless videos and reading countless "reviews," I realized that i was rarely reading the straight info on any of them. Classic case was that of the Gemini line. Looked like a great idea and covers a lot of issues, but lots of complaints, too... I will have time this year to start checking out boats at shows and for sale models, but I would like to be focused on a few models when I start. Thanks again.

[belizesailor]

Good news these days is there are lots of good buys in the used cat market. Friend of mine recently bought an L38 in excellent condition for $160K.

Why drop $400K into a depreciating asset when it looks like you can meet your objectives for much less?

[sailjumanji]

Finleyg, yes, it's going to be different than your Corsair. I owned and raced a Corsair 24 for four years, and a Corsair 28R for seven years. Key West Race Week, NOOD, Leukemia Cup, Corsair Nationals, and even some offshore distance racing. Those boats have NO bad point of sail. Our personal record on the 28R was 23 knots, going downwind with spinnaker up, in a race. We had long stretches in an offshore race with the spin, all over 19 knots. But going offshore in big waves, that boat was anything but comfortable. Ditto on "cruising" it.

We've had the Seawind 1000 since 2007. It is very well built. There is an active owners group forum, and includes the factory as well. Sourcing parts for 2002 boat, replacing lexan windows, maintenance issues - the factory rep has been very helpful. We've had only minor issues associated with our boat. I also like the dual steering wheels, the outboards (originals lasted ten years, and I just replaced them both when one of them failed), solar panels cover refrig and lighting needs, and our DC watermaker, and we don't carry a generator. We took a three month cruise - Texas to Bahamas and back - last year and everything worked fantastic. The boat also sails very nice, extremely well considering it has mini keels.

I really like the dual wheels and the fact that there is no step-up, or elevated steering perch, or whatever to deal with. You steer, you walk around, you tap the autopilot, you can sit on the seats in the back and see all thru the saloon forward to water, and have 360 deg view. And we've had 14 people eating fajitas and drinking margaritas onboard in a raftup. NO ONE steps on our boat and says "dang, I really hate all of this open space and 360 deg view."

If I had more time for long distance cruising, my next boat would be the Seawind 1160 Lite. Again, I really like the dual outboards and dual wheel placement concept, and I've owned a Seawind long enough to trust the brand. The Maine Cat 38 looks interesting as well, but I don't like the wheel being in the middle of the saloon. That said, I suspect the price point is lower than the Seawind, as the Vietnam builds struggle to compete with their $40k transportation cost to US. That - to me - is the only downside of the Seawind. If you have the money to spend, I would also look at the Seawind 1190 Race (I think that is the model name), that is built lighter, and had daggerboards for performance. As I'm mostly a day sailor and weekender - except for three month trips every other year - I really have a hard time justifying upsizing at the moment. It's also very easy to maneuaver a 33 ft cat with dual motors in and out of a tight slip, vs a higher-freeboard, 38 ft cat. I might add hull extensions like the last of the SW1000XL's models had, which makes it a 36 ft boat, and improves performance due to both longer LWL and alleviates a water exit turbulence issue the original 33 ft hulls had. The boat has plenty of sail area to take advantage of longer LWL.

As someone else suggested, I would also look at the Chris White Atlantic cat series. A friend owned an Atlantic 42, with boards, and raced it quite competitively at a PHRF 48 sec/mi rating, against a well sailed Corsair fleet. So for pure performance, that would match up directly with your Corsair. (Assuming you had a CC model, and not an R)

[sailjumanji]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

Why drop $400K into a depreciating asset when it looks like you can meet your objectives for much less?

If you have the money, why not get something that ticks all of the boxes, and then some. Someone might think spending $400k on a boat is crazy. Another might think the $160k cat you suggested is way too much. There's a thread here on $30k cruising boats. I have a friend that is looking at cats over $1MM. That's well within his financial capacity, so why settle for something less. That said, I don't ever remember him buying a new boat once - instead typically allowing the original owner to take the big hit on depreciation. And like the others, in five years or so he will be looking to change boats again.

[Naughty Cat]

Have you looked at the Catana Neo programme? They are within your budget (if the $US holds up), you get a proven "performance" hull and can spec it how you want. You also have a Catana which will hold value well if that is important.

[boatman61]

Having just sailed a new Catana I can only say I'm not overly impressed by them.. it was a Bali 4.5.. basically a larger upgraded version of the old Catalac.. but.. if that's what floats your boat.!!!

[Naughty Cat]

With respect, you sailed a Bali, not a Catana. Different boats entirely. Same holding company.

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by finleyg

SNIP

I hear on one hand that Lagoons and Seawinds are terribly slow but then other opinions are that Seawinds (esp. the 1160 lite) are quick. I do really like the clean design and lighter weight of the 1160 lite, but it seems to be cramped below (a normal function of finer hulls)... Does this help?

My experience is a well sailed Seawind is ~2/3 wind speed or so and I commonly sail mine at 10knots single handed in 15-20 knots in comfort and with ease. I have also sailed fboats at much faster speeds but something like a C31 can be a handfull. I was aboard an F39 (one of the few boats that gave me second thoughts about getting a Seawind) and the owner said while he often sailed it at 20kn+ he only felt comfortable with a crew of 5. The point being it is one thing to sail a small fboat in the teens in 20 knot winds and 2-3 foot seas and something much different to sail a boat at 10-15 knots in big waves and winds in blue water.

While I looked at several fboats (and loved the way they sailed with two fingers on the tiller) the Seawind never seemed cramped to me. Keeping in mind that my Seawind has a square top and a big screecher I commonly out run most of the boats you listed in your first post (DF 1200 excluded); probably in part because as a single hander my boat is lighter than most condomarans.

One thing you seem to like is what I will call the open cockpit/salon design the Seawind has (along with some of the other boats mentioned in this thread, especially the MCs). But some other things you expressed liking are not realistic in my opinion. Electric power is really a non starter. I like outboards because they are low cost power, try buying a new inboard engine for less than $US4k; not to mention no zinks or through hulls required along with expense in maintaining them. Another plus for outboards is they are normally raised up in wells and the boat has a much cleaner bottom with no props causing drag. An island bed requires a lot of interior space which means a wide hull; something that hinders performance. I really like dual steering stations, especially since I can often move from one side of the boat to the other and stay in shade on hot sunny days.

At a $US400k price point you have a lot of options. Seems like the trick for you is the trade offs between performance and comfort. You may want to look at the hit in performance and cost you will take for an island bed. Another consideration is how much you expect to motor. Coming from an electric powered fboat sounds like you have not motor much. But as others have noted it is common for some cats to motor when others would be sailing (do a search on "cats motor 100% of the time"). If a boat sails well, especially in light air, you will wind up motoring less. Is it worth motoring more for an island bed and wider hulls? There is no right answer to this question, just personal choice.

[SailFastTri]

Originally Posted by jdazey

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark424
Coming from a Tri, you'll be in for a rude awaking on the lackluster performance of most of these boats. Clearly I've voted w/ my wallet for the Maine Cat 38, based on prioritizing performance and simple + very high quality systems. The MC41 is a different beast (bigger motors, galley, more spacious, etc at the expense of weight), not just a different size of the same design spec. There is one for charter in the Bahamas if you want to try it out.



You might look at older Chris White, Outremer, Schionning, Fusion, Spirited Cats, smaller builders who cater more toward performance, long range cruising, more reliable systems. With your budget, you could buy something older/cheaper and really upgrade it super nice w/ the extra $.



Nothing wrong w/ the charter boats, but they are designed for a different purpose, parties, comfort for lots of people for a week or two - lots of people circumnavigate just fine on them, but for me, don't need to drag around the extra weight, staterooms, heads, complex systems.



Simple = less maintenance. Light = smaller gear, easier to short hand, and more sailing/less motoring. What I really want for long range cruising is a 35' boat on 45' hulls. That equals more performance, better sea keeping, and ability to carry supplies/fuel, etc needed for long range cruising.




+1
The Dragonfly is interesting too, but it won't have the space of the cats.

Cheers,

+1 from a Dragonfly 1200 owner. The DF 1200 is not anywhere near as roomy as an equal length mono. But one needs to take into account that a mono doesn't have amas to stow bulky things like specialty sails and fenders/fenderboards.

I think it goes without saying that all boats involve compromise, but any time I think of trading up for more space and test sail a mono or cat I am reminded I need to take a big step down in sailing enjoyment (or a huge jump in price for a CF cat). Tri owners are spoiled. You just will not get as much sailing enjoyment from a mono or cat, unless it's an all-out performance design (planing design in the case of a mono). So be prepared for the trade offs, if you value space more.

The DF 1200 is heavier and not as responsive as the F28 the OP owns now, but it will sail similarly and is waaaay more comfortable. MUCH higher quality build, too.