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Jim Woodall · 15-05-2014, 12:22

I think you will find better overall built quality and support from Leopard. I know two owners who purchased their Leopards new and both have been happy with the support from R&C as well as the dealer.

I am aware that FP has had issues with after-the-sale support. Also, even though FP claims it has "fixed" the blister problems experienced by many of its boats, many owners are apparently continuing to have complaints about blistering. It seems to be a problem FP can't solve.

DotDun · 15-05-2014, 13:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Woodall

I think you will find better overall built quality and support from Leopard. I know two owners who purchased their Leopards new and both have been happy with the support from R&C as well as the dealer.

I am aware that FP has had issues with after-the-sale support. Also, even though FP claims it has "fixed" the blister problems experienced by many of its boats, many owners are apparently continuing to have complaints about blistering. It seems to be a problem FP can't solve.

The OP asked for someone with actual experience with the same decision and process, not second hand rumor, innuendoes, and suppositions.

Do you have an axe to grind with FP? Financial gain from the sale of a Leopard?

cwjohm · 15-05-2014, 14:39

Quote:

I am aware that FP has had issues with after-the-sale support. Also, even though FP claims it has "fixed" the blister problems experienced by many of its boats, many owners are apparently continuing to have complaints about blistering. It seems to be a problem FP can't solve.

Are you. Which boats are you referring to exactly?

I know a lot of FP owners that are very happy with FP support and their addressing of their blister issues, a story which finished four years ago. Similarly I know Leopard owners who are unhappy with their boats due to wave slam.

If we can raise the discussion to right now and deal with the reality, both of these boats the OP asked to compare are quite reasonable with the respective manufacturers learning the lessons of history and effectively addressing them, and he should be happy buying either. Referring to ancient history is not helpful.

jonarck · 15-05-2014, 14:52

Hi, Everyone

Lots of good opinions here, thanks!

Yes, the Maverick is impressive (and I've seen both the 400 and 440 at boat shows), but we don't have $500K+ (out-the-door).

The Nautitech 400 Open is interesting, but even if it was in our price range (which I don't believe that it is), we don't want helms out on the transoms and we're not too crazy about the cockpit layout. I like the 441, though (which is WAY out of our price range).

So, still Leopard 39 vs. Lipari 41 if new. We hope to see and sail both during our August vacation in Florida.

BTW, I've been sailing a Belize 43 in San Francisco Bay for 2 years and really like the way that she sails (that's why a Orana 44 would be considered if we go used).

Cheers,
Jon

jonarck · 15-05-2014, 15:11

Hi, Everyone

Lots of good opinions here, thanks!

We will not be liveaboards, but plan to spend weeks in the Bahamas or the Keys (The Admiral wants -- in order -- safety, comfort, performance; as long as she has the first two, I get the "say" on the third, but it must be within the budget). :-(

We're also considering a skippered charter business (I have a 50T Masters license) and teaching, perhaps in an ASA school nearby, for who I also may do skippered charters. Lots of "moving parts" here, and whether we decide on a business also had a tax/budget impact.

So, still Leopard 39 vs. Lipari 41 if new. We hope to see and sail both during our August vacation in Florida.

BTW, I've been sailing a Belize 43 in San Francisco Bay for 2 years and really like the way that she sails (that's why a Orana 44 would be considered if we go used), but a Helia, due to price, is out.

Cheers,
Jon

Jim Woodall · 15-05-2014, 18:02

DotDun and swjohm:

I didn't intend to strike such a nerve with my mild criticism of FP factory support and FP's blistering problems. I'm sure there are many very happy FP owners, but I know three very unhappy FP owners who have been completely frustrated by efforts to have ongoing problems, including blistering, addressed by FP.

I have spent time researching many different catamarans, in particular the big three of Lagoon, FP and Leopard. Take the time to review my historical posts and you will see that I have spent considerable time with experienced boatyard workers who have many hours working on cats. I have not only talked with them, they have shown me work in progress and explained the recurring issues they encounter with different brands and models. Lagoons, Leopards and virtually every brand and even particular models within a brand have their own unique problems at times. I have visited the Caribbean boat yards mentioned in my historical posts two additional times since 2011. I have visited numerous French boatyards as well as both the Lagoon and FP facilities. I have not been to Cape Town, yet.

My opinions are my own, they are not based on second-hand rumor, but there my have been a bit of innuendo and supposition.

FP's blistering problems are not "ancient history" and they were not fully addressed four years ago. A tour through a few tropical boatyards and French boatyards along with frank discussions with FP owners will answer any lingering questions about FP's blistering. Many owners are reluctant to discuss the problem because of concerns about resale value, that's why boatyard tours are so important. I agree FP has put forth a solid effort to correct the problems, but only after a considerable amount of wasted time denying the problem ever existed. Some FP blistering developed within a few months of going in the water! I suggest that any prospective boat buyer tour a few yards that work on the brands and models of interest to them and ask the workers questions, it's much more informative than magazine reviews or internet forums and you can actually see the problems and what it takes to correct them.

I like FP catamarans. I've chartered one in Greece and now correspond regularly with several owners. A couple of FP models are on my short list, but some of their models have had more than their share of problems.

cwjohm · 15-05-2014, 18:49

Fair enough. At least you are honest enough to admit that there is innuendo and supposition in your opinion.

For me I prefer to base my opinions on fact. I would have perhaps ten FP boats moored around me of various models. Probably I have seen maybe 100 pass through here, including many who have had bottom peels courtesy of FP, up to a cost of $45K in one case.

I have yet to meet one owner who has been unhappy with FP's response to their issues after having taken up the issues in a sensible fashion with FP.

I have yet to meet one owner where FP have denied the problem existed.

I have yet to meet one owner who has not been honest with buyers that the boat has had a bottom peel and not been happy to discuss the issue.

I have yet to meet one owner who has priced his boat properly that has had difficulty in selling a bottom peeled boat.

Yes, there are two posters here who continue to bang away on this forum about these issues but both have their own personal grievences which have nothing to do with this issue.

FP have provided assurances in writing that the problem of osmosis was addressed in 2010, and I have yet to see ANY examples of these issues in boats manufactured after this time, nor have I seen any reference in this forum other than by rumour.

This is not to say that there have not been problems just as every manufacturer will have problems from time to time. Its just that I have yet to see any. Certainly, I have met owners with general issues related to all major production builders including Leopard, but by and large when pushed all problems will be addressed.

The only problem I have with FP at the moment is that I cannot get them to complete a new boat I have ordered as currently their demand is at all time records, so plainly the general boating community does not share your concerns. Will I have issues with this new boat. Of course I will. Will there be times that I will be pissed off at FP? You bet. At the end of the day will all issues be dealt with? Based on my experience I have confidence they will?

At the end of the day the OP will decide on which new boat to buy. IMO both are quite good boats for the price, and I would be happy to own either.

If in fact the OP is going to use it for charter skippering though I would recommend moving up to a bigger boat. A 2011/12 Orana will cost around the same as a new Lipari.

ausaviator · 15-05-2014, 18:52

I'm not giving pro's and cons of balsa verses foam, I'm just highliting that the two boats mentioned are manufactured from significantly different materials. It is up to the OP to make up their mind.

Personally, if I saw an advert that said Foam cored Lagoon, versus strip-plank cedar or balsa cored epoxy coated.... I'd go with the Lagoon, but that's just me. I'm not saying anything bad about Leopard at all, I've been on multiple models and was suitably impressed and I'm sure the majority of owners are.

Dod42 · 15-05-2014, 18:56

The question was about Lipari's not earlier FP's. I know a number of Lipari owners and NONE have had the blistering you talk about. When I talk to our Australian Agent their comments where that the Lipari has the lowest warrantee claim percentage of any of the FP models and I believe the build count is up around 200 now. The owners must be happy with them as when we went looking 2 years ago to get a second hand one we couldn't find one. We had to buy new. There are a couple of Lipari's now for sale and they are holding their price very well, I have spoken to 2 who have their boats for sale and they are selling to upgrade to a Helia. The new Evolution model, although mostly cosmetic, is still a very nice improvement.

DotDun · 15-05-2014, 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Woodall

My opinions are my own, they are not based on second-hand rumor, but there my have been a bit of innuendo and supposition.

And still the OP asked for those with experience on 2 explicit models.

Understanding you have no experience, do you have an opinion on those particular models? You seem to only express generalities about the manufacturers.

Myself, having sailed the L39 and buddy boat with the same, I'll point out this. The Lipari is 2 feet longer and 2 feet more beam, but yet weighs 1000's of pounds less. The extra weight of the L39 causes more wetted surface. The L39 has less draft with more weight which equals less keel. The L39 suffers in upwind performance.

I do like the finish on Leopards.

tuskie · 18-05-2014, 01:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by ausaviator

I'm not giving pro's and cons of balsa verses foam, I'm just highliting that the two boats mentioned are manufactured from significantly different materials. It is up to the OP to make up their mind.

Are they much different? The Leopards use a balsa core in a very thick fibreglass skinned composite sandwich, hence the lack of real life core rotting problems.

Fountaine Pajot USED to use mostly foam cores with solid glass below the waterline. The newest FP model that I have seen is a Helia, and it had balsa visible through the unflowcoated laminate in the engine bay bilges. Is the Lipari similarly constructed?

If so, not much difference except for a lighter layup with the FP?

DotDun · 18-05-2014, 04:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by tuskie

Are they much different? The Leopards use a balsa core in a very thick fibreglass skinned composite sandwich, hence the lack of real life core rotting problems.

Fountaine Pajot USED to use mostly foam cores with solid glass below the waterline. The newest FP model that I have seen is a Helia, and it had balsa visible through the unflowcoated laminate in the engine bay bilges. Is the Lipari similarly constructed?

If so, not much difference except for a lighter layup with the FP?

Lipari is foam core, Helia is the first FP model with balsa core. Yes, the major difference is weight, otherwise both provide structural integrity. Foam continues to work when wet, balsa does not, hence extra care must be taken when exposing balsa core.

Dulcesuenos · 18-05-2014, 05:31

I have seen and had boats over the years with foam core issues. When foam gets wet it becomes nasty and crumbles into mush. I think it takes much longer for wood to do The same.

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Factor · 18-05-2014, 07:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dulcesuenos

I have seen and had boats over the years with foam core issues. When foam gets wet it becomes nasty and crumbles into mush. I think it takes much longer for wood to do The same.

Seriously?