Liferaft on a Cat

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by owly

I have long used the term "death raft" rather than "life raft". Their integrity is pathetic as far as long term survival in open ocean. Read any survival story of a man in a life raft. They are designed for use with an EPIRB and fairly brief survival until rescue. If for some reason your EPIRB fails, you are truly F***ed.


I would choose a "life dinghy" over a life raft. The only one that comes to mind is the Portland Pudgy, but there probably are other designs, and perhaps John Welsford the famed designer of dinghies and other small craft has a design that would work well. He has a number of unsinkable dinks that are easily rightable. I would inquire there first I think. The ideal "life dinghy" would be sail able.


.... I'm biased.... I want a dinghy that can be rowed or sailed anyway.

Out of curiosity what does a Portland Pudgy get you that a life raft doesn't in the middle of the ocean? Also curious if yours is painted bright orange?

[GRIT]

Originally Posted by fxykty

The main and aft beams are large voids. The deck and salon/cockpit are foam cored. Once flipped the air trapped in the bottom 40cm of the hulls will also help (and won’t be buried with hatch opening). According to the designer she will float flat with the underside of the bridgedeck just awash. I hope to never verify that.

Each hull has two watertight bulkheads in the bows (1.3m and 5m behind the bows) and two watertight bulkheads in the sterns. The engines/shafts and rudders are completely separate from the living areas.

Other than maintaining the under water openings and the bilge pumps I’m not sure what precautions one could take that don’t involve sailing conservatively and vigilantly.

If you’ve got a liferaft that becomes a decent place to live while waiting for rescue, as long as you stay attached to and sheltered by the boat, say sitting on the underside of the bridgedeck.

I’ve referenced our sails elsewhere. In short, after one year and 7,000 miles on them so far, including three open ocean passages in the Tasman Sea, we’re happy that we’ve achieved what we planned. The materials and construction continue to look great. The removal of furling reefing for the headsails is a bit of a pain as one has to manage and execute the changeover from jib to staysail. But I prefer the better shape of jib without any luff turns and now that we’ve better secured the tack the staysail luff has minimal sag.

Outremers really are the bomb! I didn't know they put that much thought into keeping the boat afloat after a calamity. Kudos to them, most manufacturers don't do much in the way of planning that way.

We have much the same as regards to floatation, though the engines are under the berths, rather than outside, and our entire boat is foam cored.

It's always nice to hear what others do in that regard, in case someone has better ideas than what we've already done.

Thanks for that description, and the sail update.

Cheers.
Paul.

[owly]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

Out of curiosity what does a Portland Pudgy get you that a life raft doesn't in the middle of the ocean? Also curious if yours is painted bright orange?

They are available in orange and yellow, and the weather cover is bright orange. The Pudgy is a dingy...It cannot deflate, it has a solid bottom instead of a wimpy fabric bottom, and it can be sailed.... It can also be rowed. Death rafts have tubes that spring leaks, have fabric floors that can tear and / or leak. Death rafts cannot be propelled by sail, and I don't know if you have ever tried to paddle a raft...... a ridiculous undertaking that gains almost no distance. The ONLY purpose of a death raft is to keep you alive and afloat for a very limited time while helplessly awaiting rescue. There is absolutely NOTHING you can do to better your situation. You are completely dependent on someone finding and rescuing you........ totally dependent on a working EPIRB. If somebody doesn't locate you on the ocean by that signal, you will float for months driven helplessly by ocean currents and wind........ and almost unimaginably helpless situation that has happened a fair number of times. Death raft is a well earned name. If you are a coastal sailor as most folks are, a death raft can be a life raft, because you will be found quickly and rescued. If you are mid pacific, you will be in it for a significant amount of time, and if for some reason your EPIRB fails you or is lost, abandon all hope....... You are going to be there for many months.... probably the rest of your life.
I'm not pushing that particular product, rather using it for an example of what you can buy off the shelf that is quality (not cheap), well designed, and will save your ass in a pinch. I imagine there are probably other products that seek to accomplish the same ends.

[jdazey]

If you're considering having a liferaft on board, I suggest you give a close read to "Fastnet Force 10" and accounts of the 1998 Sydney-Hobart race.


While I haven't tested this, Presto should be unsinkable. I've discussed the capsize problem with Chris White, and he thinks Presto would float with a slight stern down attitude with the cabin sole escape hatch slightly underwater. In that situation I'd be very reluctant to give up the boat in favor of a liferaft. If life inside became untenable, we have jacklines running under the bridgedeck.



Having said that, we do have a liferaft in a valise on board. This was purchased to satisfy some safety requirements for offshore racing. If we were still cruising offshore, we wouldn't have bothered with the raft.

[contrail]

Having been the videographer for a test between a Tinker (sadly no longer made, the Tinker was an inflatable that ingeniously and efficiently double as a "lifeboat") and a top of the line liferaft, I can assure you that you would be surprised at how quickly and easily the liferaft capsized, and, yes, it had all the stability devices. It's only virtue was that it inflated rapidly. The Tinker, which had been poorly packed, did not, which skewed the results, but if done right, it inflates very quickly, too. When we think of the famous rescues involving life rafts, we need to also consider the boats lost without a trace, and whether they had liferafts, too. The recorded instances of people taking to their Tinker, usually ended with something along the lines of "and then, five days later, we sailed into port," as they also had the ability and equipment to sail.



In my opinion, a craft that can be launched quickly (dinghy or liferaft or whatever, including floatation suits, are important for fires, and, fires happen more easily than one might think. A bad electrical connection can cause a fire! But, in a general sense, the most important thing is a registered EPIRB. That's what will get you help quickly, whether you are perched on the underside of your cat, in your dinghy, or your liferaft. Without some form of communication (could be one of the non-EPIRB sat phone solutions), you are really trusting to luck. But, with an EPIRB or equivalent, you might even get rescued just floating around with nothing other than a lifejacket! Certainly a dinghy will probably survive, and, by the way, an inflatable RIB is as well constructed as a liferaft, and of much more durable material.



As for catamarans staying afloat, some have done so, but if you think of all the holes that pass through "watertight" floation compartments, it's easy to see how tough it is to really seal them. Don't just think of the holes created during the build. Think of all the ones added later, to allow for installation of the masses of equipment on most cats. Every hole may be a breach in a watertight compartment. Just take the engine compartments, almost all of which have at least a few electrical cables passing through their bulkheads, open seacocks, exhaust openings, all open to water or air, and it's easy to see why photos of upside down cats almost always show the aft end submerged with the bows sticking out of the water! And how about sink drains, which, unless closed by valves, allow the air out of an inverted hull? Food for thought on your thruhull procedures. On one former boat, all my thruhulls were readily accessible, and when underway, all were closed except for specific times when the head, or sink, or whatever, was being used.



In my opinion, the most important thing is a way for emergency communication, most likely an EPRIB or something like a SPOT or Iridium GO. After that, the next most important thing is something, anything, that will float. Could be a life jacket. Could be a dinghy. Could be a liferaft. Might even be the mother ship. After that, we need to think of protection from the elements, anything from cold water to burning sun. And then, the list goes on!


Sail safely, confidently, but not carelessly.

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by owly

They are available in orange and yellow, and the weather cover is bright orange. The Pudgy is a dingy...It cannot deflate, it has a solid bottom instead of a wimpy fabric bottom, and it can be sailed.... It can also be rowed. Death rafts have tubes that spring leaks, have fabric floors that can tear and / or leak. Death rafts cannot be propelled by sail, and I don't know if you have ever tried to paddle a raft...... a ridiculous undertaking that gains almost no distance. The ONLY purpose of a death raft is to keep you alive and afloat for a very limited time while helplessly awaiting rescue. There is absolutely NOTHING you can do to better your situation. You are completely dependent on someone finding and rescuing you........ totally dependent on a working EPIRB. If somebody doesn't locate you on the ocean by that signal, you will float for months driven helplessly by ocean currents and wind........ and almost unimaginably helpless situation that has happened a fair number of times. Death raft is a well earned name. If you are a coastal sailor as most folks are, a death raft can be a life raft, because you will be found quickly and rescued. If you are mid pacific, you will be in it for a significant amount of time, and if for some reason your EPIRB fails you or is lost, abandon all hope....... You are going to be there for many months.... probably the rest of your life.
I'm not pushing that particular product, rather using it for an example of what you can buy off the shelf that is quality (not cheap), well designed, and will save your ass in a pinch. I imagine there are probably other products that seek to accomplish the same ends.

Just a little of my background, I spent 20 years as a U.S. Coast Guard pilot doing search and rescue, so I've seen a few searches in my day...and rescued plenty of folks from life rafts. It's really unclear what the ability to row gets you when you're mid Pacific, how far can you row per day on limited food and water? This is something that endurance athletes well stocked with food and provisions with years of training routinely die attempting! You'll probably only be able to row far enough that you'll screw up our wind and current models and we end up looking for you in the place you no longer are. Sorry to break it to you, but if you're in any kind of small boat in the middle of the Pacific, rowable or not, you're entirely dependent on someone else to rescue you. Invest in more flares, mirrors, and epirbs; all much more effective than this absurd notion that you're going to row to your own rescue 1,000 miles from shore. And if you're costal, as you mentioned, there is plenty of other traffic to see you and rescue you, so sitting tight in your life raft preserving water and calories is always the optimal solution.

That's all before considering that many boats go down in storms or you'll encounter a storm after you go down. Most life rafts are ballasted and pretty robust when it comes to staying basically right side up in big seas and high winds. If it does roll you'll be really uncomfortable but probably stay in the raft. You rowing in your Portland Pudgy....not so much.

[capn_billl]

If your life raft is a "death raft", then you cheaped out on a critical piece of safety equipment.

People, can, and DO survive for months in the middle of the ocean on them, and there are numerous accounts of people being rescued from them.

As far as Cats, vs Mono?

As far as I know you use the same exact liferaft in both.

I have one on MY Cat now in the rear cockpit, about to be relocated to a hydro release carrier on the cabin top, which is where I will be standing when i step Up into it.

If the main ship remains floating, I will keep the liferaft tethered, inverted or not with a quick release knot, and a handy rigging knife I keep on my belt.

[owly]

I suspect it's a fantasy to believe that the more you spend on a death raft the better it will hold together..... it's a natural assumption, that plays into the hands of marketers........ but is probably NOT based in reality. If I were marketing these rafts, I would probably put a premium price on my product, and claim it was better than all others......... who's ever going to test it to the limit? I presume there are standards they all have to meet.... For most folks "not cheaping out" will make them feel better, and as a rule that's what matters. The vast majority of situations where one takes to the death raft will be near shore... relatively speaking, not several thousand miles offshore.
I mentioned the Pudgy NOT because it could be rowed as a life raft, though that could be of significant value in some situations where safety is near, but because it is able to be sailed, has all the protection of a so called "life raft", is vastly more rugged, and has the dual function as an emergency escape, and a dinghy.........it was just an example
Communication I agree is the most important survival capability....... but **** happens, and you could be adrift with no communication. An EPIRB and an Inreach might be a good combo.......... but in a disaster you could end up without either.


Read ANY description of the experience of being on a death raft for an extended period of time......... Problems with the raft loom large............. and you are entirely helpless praying for someone to see you These rafts are fabric in the elements. Of course they deteriorate even when stored in their case or whatever, and with a little reading you will find that failure to deploy is not uncommon when tested. A rigid craft is a craft you do not have to worry about...... It doesn't have to transition from a folded stored state to a usable state.



In most cases people expect to be able to exist in their rafts on the underwing between the hulls of an inverted cat................ This is usually a fantasy...a little violent weather and it will be torn loose...... it is just stitched fabric after all, and in every case I've read about the castaways become separated from the mother ship. when they attempt to stay attached.


The fact that an inverted cat does not sink is not much comfort if it is not "habitable" At least an inverted trimaran CAN be habitable if you make provision for it.


I sound like a pessimist, but it's based on general life experience. In a crisis things do not go right........ and there are MANY things to go wrong.......... and they are likely to. Didn't that Irishman say something about that? (Murphy).......... and in fact he created a multi billion dollar business out of it.


The ideal thing for a cat would be to have a big airbag inside the bridge deck cabin...... assuming you could keep things closed up. It would provide central flotation which could raise the level of the underwing considerably, and possibly make parts of the hulls habitable......but that's maybe a fantasy unless you had prepared a way in advance to stop the surge from destroying your airbag. That would be a real challenge, and not possible on most cats........ too much "glass" and the sea is going to take that pretty quickly opening things up to the surge. probably not a realistic dream.



The coasties........ US, AU, NZ, etc are great......but it's a HUGE ocean, and a life raft or overturned boat is tiny. If they have a signal, they'll find you. If not, it's a crap shoot. They have to define a probable search grid........ hopefully they will see you IF you are within that search grid.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

It's really unclear what the ability to row gets you when you're mid Pacific, how far can you row per day on limited food and water?

3618 NM in 47 days = 77, if you are William Bligh

[chrisr]

Originally Posted by StuM

3618 NM in 47 days = 77, if you are William Bligh

undeniably one of the great small boat voyages of all times.

but to be fair to the present debate : it was in a 23' ship's launch with 18 (then 17) hardened seamen. i doubt any of us will be abandoning ship as well set up - or be able to come even close to such a trip

the best you could hope for in a pudgy or similar would be to sail a few miles down wind to a convenient island - if weather & current was favourable.

admittedly this is more than could be done in a death raft

cheers,

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by owly

I suspect it's a fantasy to believe that the more you spend on a death raft the better it will hold together..... it's a natural assumption, that plays into the hands of marketers........ but is probably NOT based in reality. If I were marketing these rafts, I would probably put a premium price on my product, and claim it was better than all others......... who's ever going to test it to the limit? I presume there are standards they all have to meet.... For most folks "not cheaping out" will make them feel better, and as a rule that's what matters. The vast majority of situations where one takes to the death raft will be near shore... relatively speaking, not several thousand miles offshore.
I mentioned the Pudgy NOT because it could be rowed as a life raft, though that could be of significant value in some situations where safety is near, but because it is able to be sailed, has all the protection of a so called "life raft", is vastly more rugged, and has the dual function as an emergency escape, and a dinghy.........it was just an example
Communication I agree is the most important survival capability....... but **** happens, and you could be adrift with no communication. An EPIRB and an Inreach might be a good combo.......... but in a disaster you could end up without either.


Read ANY description of the experience of being on a death raft for an extended period of time......... Problems with the raft loom large............. and you are entirely helpless praying for someone to see you These rafts are fabric in the elements. Of course they deteriorate even when stored in their case or whatever, and with a little reading you will find that failure to deploy is not uncommon when tested. A rigid craft is a craft you do not have to worry about...... It doesn't have to transition from a folded stored state to a usable state.



In most cases people expect to be able to exist in their rafts on the underwing between the hulls of an inverted cat................ This is usually a fantasy...a little violent weather and it will be torn loose...... it is just stitched fabric after all, and in every case I've read about the castaways become separated from the mother ship. when they attempt to stay attached.


The fact that an inverted cat does not sink is not much comfort if it is not "habitable" At least an inverted trimaran CAN be habitable if you make provision for it.


I sound like a pessimist, but it's based on general life experience. In a crisis things do not go right........ and there are MANY things to go wrong.......... and they are likely to. Didn't that Irishman say something about that? (Murphy).......... and in fact he created a multi billion dollar business out of it.


The ideal thing for a cat would be to have a big airbag inside the bridge deck cabin...... assuming you could keep things closed up. It would provide central flotation which could raise the level of the underwing considerably, and possibly make parts of the hulls habitable......but that's maybe a fantasy unless you had prepared a way in advance to stop the surge from destroying your airbag. That would be a real challenge, and not possible on most cats........ too much "glass" and the sea is going to take that pretty quickly opening things up to the surge. probably not a realistic dream.



The coasties........ US, AU, NZ, etc are great......but it's a HUGE ocean, and a life raft or overturned boat is tiny. If they have a signal, they'll find you. If not, it's a crap shoot. They have to define a probable search grid........ hopefully they will see you IF you are within that search grid.

You're all over the map here. First of all you wanted to be able to row somewhere when you were in the middle of the Pacific. When the futility of that was pointed out, you go on a baseless rant about the quality of life rafts. I would love to see the solid data you have on properly packed and inspected liferafts failing? Again, I've personally rescued quite a few people out of liferafts which worked very well at their job of keeping survivors alive, out of the water, and visible to searchers. I have never picked up anyone in a Portland Pudgy, or even a dinghy, probably because they capsize and are unrecoverable in the kind of storms that require folks to hit a life raft. Again, if you've got any actual data on folks surviving long periods of time on their Portland Pudgy in any conditions, let alone storms, I'd love to see it.

Quite frankly you have zero experience in search and rescue and no idea what you're talking about. Which is fine, that's increasingly common on the internet where everyone seems to think their uniformed opinion is as valuable as decades of actual experience. And if you want to kill yourself, I'd be fine with that except that you're putting my former collogues at risk during the extended time they fruitlessly search for you. But certainly I would hope that no-one reading this would take these uninformed rants as anything but the dangerously incorrect information it is. If you're going offshore make sure you have a properly packed and inspected life raft that is inside its inspection period, you'll find that most cases of liferaft issues occur with outdated equipment outside it's inspection period. Make sure the liferaft has flares, strobes, mirrors, food, and water or a watermaker. If you can stay with your overturned boat even if in your raft, do so as it's a bigger target to see both visually and on radar and easier to calculate the drift models for. Ideally you would pack a locator beacon in the raft, if not make sure you've got one handy and a float free EPIRB on your boat. Flares and strobes can be seen from many miles away while on NVGs. Conserve your calories and water, stay out of the sun, and stay as dry as you can. That's what the experts who do this for a living have determined provides the highest chance that you'll come out of the situation alive. Or you can listen to Portland Pudgy with his whole "death raft" rants, your choice.

[AKA-None]

Maybe this?

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