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02-09-2021, 13:57
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#16
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Kingston / Thousand Islands, Ontario
Boat: C&C 35 Mk.II
Posts: 343
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Re: Leopard 50 burns and sinks
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete7
Indeed, so sad.
What shocks me is the image at 3 minutes. Regardless of the cause, is there really that much flammable material within reach as the fire spreads at that speed?
Something to think about when replacing soft furnishings perhaps.
Pete
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Yes. Once it starts to grow, the resin and core of the hull / deck, the upholstery foam, the wood panelling, the acrylic canvas, the polycarbonate hatch glass.... they all make great fuels. At 600°C, pretty much the only things on a boat that won't burn are the metal fittings and the engine block.
"Fire retardant" synthetic materials – everything from PVC wire insulation to polycarbonate windows – generally won't sustain a flame on their own. If there's a small / smouldering fire, eg. an overheated wire, and the heat source is removed, they should self-extinguish. But that protection goes out the window at somewhere around 300°-400°C sustained. With the wind acting like a blacksmith's bellows, and the more readily flammable stuff (eg. the wood) providing sustained heat, the synthetics – even if nominally flame-retardant – start to become awfully nice fuels, and as they melt, the exposed surface area (and thus the reaction rate) goes way up.
Metal boats aren't much of a panacea. The structure itself may not be flammable, but everything inside it still is. A lot of metal boats have burned.
The systems engineering challenge here is to prevent the fire from igniting in the first place.
The materials engineering challenge is to ensure that any tiny, smouldering fire that does start will tend to self-extinguish, rather than self-amplify. But actually achieving that in many types of materials tends to incur huge penalties in cost, and often in toxicity, functionality, and durability.
__________________
Matt Marsh
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02-09-2021, 14:00
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#17
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wide Bay, Qld, Aust
Boat: 45f5
Posts: 135
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Re: Leopard 50 burns and sinks
We had a fire aboard a 35' yacht that we were deliverying back from Hobart to Sydney. Started in the galley in the mid of Bass Strait. Fire blanket was ineffective so got it out with fire extinguishers. I can tell you that the cleanup took a long time as that stuff got into everywhere within a boat cabin. Still happy to have the fire out though.
Felt really sorry for the owners of both cats in the vid. Hard to be so far away at the time too.
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02-09-2021, 14:21
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#18
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 488
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Re: Leopard 50 burns and sinks
Metal or not, once a boat starts burning...you don’t want it anymore.
Same with a car. Let the insurance company have it.
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02-09-2021, 15:57
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#19
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2007
Boat: Seawind 1000xl
Posts: 7,461
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Re: Leopard 50 burns and sinks
I’ve seen a metal boat burn. Does great until the hoses from the through hulls burn then it’s straight to the bottom.
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02-09-2021, 16:07
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#20
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Lake City MN
Boat: C&C 27 Mk III
Posts: 2,648
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Re: Leopard 50 burns and sinks
Quote:
Originally Posted by smj
I’ve seen a metal boat burn. Does great until the hoses from the through hulls burn then it’s straight to the bottom.
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Self extinguishing?
__________________
Special knowledge can be a terrible disadvantage if it leads you too far along a path that you cannot explain anymore.
Frank Herbert 'Dune'
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02-09-2021, 16:09
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#21
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2007
Boat: Seawind 1000xl
Posts: 7,461
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Re: Leopard 50 burns and sinks
Quote:
Originally Posted by AKA-None
Self extinguishing?
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Why yes of course. Maintains the structural integrity of the hull…..!
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02-09-2021, 17:49
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#22
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 1,636
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Re: Leopard 50 burns and sinks
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailingwithgil
Here is a good point about about Aluminum boat vs Fiberglass boats
It only take about ten minutes to burn a new 50' leopard to the water line in Fort Lauderdale 'FL And How fast the Salvage Vultures Start Cycling the wreck. And How Fast The Owner liabilities Starts.
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This steel boat didn't do so well in a fire despite having hundreds of folks available to fight it https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-...-ship-in-july/
Boats burn because of the stuff in them, making the fact that the hull is aluminum more or less irrelevant to your survival in a fire at sea. The boat is unsurvivable long before it gets hot enough to catch the fiberglass on fire. Not to mention that at the temperatures that a fiberglass boat catches fire like that, an aluminum boat will have lost a good deal of it's structural strength and while it won't catch fire it will cave in on itself. Again, it's pretty irrelevant because either boat is entirely uninhabitable at that point anyway, but the aluminum really doesn't get you anything except maybe something that's worth more at the recyclers.
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02-09-2021, 18:23
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#23
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,739
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Re: Leopard 50 burns and sinks
This was a boatyard accident - nothing to do with cruising or the boat design. My understanding is that acetone was being used by a worker. It set off a fireball.
The lesson here is that you should be extremely careful to only use acetone outside and even then with great care. It's amazingly dangerous stuff.
The owners were fully insured. There will be lots of fighting between insurance companies but the owners will almost certainly come out financially whole - although their cruising plans will be seriously delayed.
The blessing is that no one was killed or seriously hurt. Boats can be replaced.
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02-09-2021, 19:58
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#24
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Australia
Boat: 50' aluminium power cat
Posts: 318
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Re: Leopard 50 burns and sinks
Quote:
Originally Posted by smj
I’ve seen a metal boat burn. Does great until the hoses from the through hulls burn then it’s straight to the bottom.
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Welded standpipes to above the waterline on all underwater throughhulls  ... of course the welds fail as well at 650 Celsius (1200 fahrenheit for those in Liberia, Caymen Islands and USA  )
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02-09-2021, 20:39
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#25
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Slidell, La.
Boat: Morgan Classic 33
Posts: 2,845
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Re: Leopard 50 burns and sinks
While I think I can understand the empathy for the loss of a boat (having never lost one, except for a stolen flatboat), when I read many of the comments, I feel like we've watched different videos...
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02-09-2021, 21:40
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#26
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Naples, FL
Boat: Leopard Catamaran
Posts: 2,583
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Re: Leopard 50 burns and sinks
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete7
Indeed, so sad.
What shocks me is the image at 3 minutes. Regardless of the cause, is there really that much flammable material within reach as the fire spreads at that speed?
Something to think about when replacing soft furnishings perhaps.
Pete
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Me suddenly realizing all my furnishings are petroleum products.
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02-09-2021, 21:47
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#27
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Cape Coral,Fl and Sattahip,Thailand
Boat: Nonsuch 30Ultra Grand Banks 36
Posts: 170
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Re: Leopard 50 burns and sinks
[QUOTE=CarlF;3475221] My understanding is that acetone was being used by a worker. It set off a fireball.
Link to basis of that statement please.
Don
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03-09-2021, 07:50
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#28
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2020
Posts: 750
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Re: Leopard 50 burns and sinks
That’s a terrible mess to be sure. I certainly feel for the owners of both boats involved. If I lost my boat in that way, I’d be devastated.
A couple things surprise me: First is the incredulity of the owners that they are being held financially responsible the cleanup of the mess that their boat has left behind. “It’s not fair. We were in Australia!” Yeah, well, SOMEBODY has to pay for the cleanup, and it is a whole lot less fair to dump those costs of your toy on the local taxpayers. I guess they’ll be even more surprised when the owner of the other boat destroyed comes after them for the value of HIS boat and it’s cleanup! Now, if the fire was the result of the actions of workman, then you better hope THEIR insurance is paid up so you can be made whole later.
Second, is the apparent lack of response from their insurance company. Since the company is (probably) ultimately responsible for the costs, I’d expect them to be VERY proactive in handling this.
I’d fully expect a well run insurance company to have a salvage team on retainer, or at least a manager who can take charge and control costs and try to limit any additional liability. I would really, really hope that in this situation, the response from my insurance company would be, “Don’t worry, we got it. Have everybody call us at this number.” Anything less seems like clueless lack of preparation.
A good example of why insurance, and why good insurance is worth the money. Just watch this video, and you'll see how very, very fast you can chew through $1,000,000 in liability coverage.
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03-09-2021, 08:44
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#29
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 488
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Re: Leopard 50 burns and sinks
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillKny
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A good example of why insurance, and why good insurance is worth the money. Just watch this video, and you'll see how very, very fast you can chew through $1,000,000 in liability coverage.
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This. So much this.
Nothing drives me more crazy than hearing someone say they’re ‘self insured’.
Unless you’ve got 7-8 figures sitting in the bank, this is simply not true.
An old lawyer friend of mine once told me ‘unless you can pay out a wrongful death judgement, you’re not self insured—you’re uninsured.’
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03-09-2021, 08:46
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#30
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Kingston / Thousand Islands, Ontario
Boat: C&C 35 Mk.II
Posts: 343
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Re: Leopard 50 burns and sinks
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillKny
That’s a terrible mess to be sure. I certainly feel for the owners of both boats involved. If I lost my boat in that way, I’d be devastated.
A couple things surprise me: First is the incredulity of the owners that they are being held financially responsible the cleanup of the mess that their boat has left behind. “It’s not fair. We were in Australia!” Yeah, well, SOMEBODY has to pay for the cleanup, and it is a whole lot less fair to dump those costs of your toy on the local taxpayers. I guess they’ll be even more surprised when the owner of the other boat destroyed comes after them for the value of HIS boat and it’s cleanup! Now, if the fire was the result of the actions of workman, then you better hope THEIR insurance is paid up so you can be made whole later.
Second, is the apparent lack of response from their insurance company. Since the company is (probably) ultimately responsible for the costs, I’d expect them to be VERY proactive in handling this.
I’d fully expect a well run insurance company to have a salvage team on retainer, or at least a manager who can take charge and control costs and try to limit any additional liability. I would really, really hope that in this situation, the response from my insurance company would be, “Don’t worry, we got it. Have everybody call us at this number.” Anything less seems like clueless lack of preparation.
A good example of why insurance, and why good insurance is worth the money. Just watch this video, and you'll see how very, very fast you can chew through $1,000,000 in liability coverage.
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This, in a nutshell, is why pretty much no marina operator anywhere will allow an uninsured boat to dock. Anyone who's willing to take the financial risk of losing their own boat, in order to avoid paying insurance premiums, is almost certainly unable to take the financial risk of the liability for damage to the docks and the adjacent boats. The marina operator's insurer knows this, and will insist on each boat being covered; a policy that allows a marina operator to accept guests on uninsured boats would be prohibitively expensive.
__________________
Matt Marsh
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