Lagoon Sail Drive Placment

[Tornadosailing]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

Speed will do it, but also just thrust...like when jockeying a big cat into a tight spot. The rudders are unbalanced so worse with reverse thrust.

I can see that. I've squeezed that lagoon into some pretty tight spots without much trouble, but I've always tried to bump it into gear and back to neutral before I got much pressure on the rudders. Every time I got pressure on the rudders I just figured I was going to fast.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by Tornadosailing

I can see that. I've squeezed that lagoon into some pretty tight spots without much trouble, but I've always tried to bump it into gear and back to neutral before I got much pressure on the rudders. Every time I got pressure on the rudders I just figured I was going to fast.

On the 44 it is not a pronounced, on the 50 the affect is worse from just thrust.

A bareboat company lets you bring it back in? Many have their own crew dock the boats (at the base anyway).

[smj]

This sailor figured a way to balance the weight from the far aft diesels.
And who said catamarans don't have load carrying capabilities[emoji38]

[Tornadosailing]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

A bareboat company lets you bring it back in? Many have their own crew dock the boats (at the base anyway).

Not only let you, but expect you to. Last time in I was lining up with one of their slips and they waved me off. The guy pointed to the other end to put me in a slip that was no more than two feet wider than the boat. I said it wouldn't fit, he said it would, and it did. Nailed it on my first try.

Florida Yacht Charter, Sales, Rentals, & Management - Fun In The Sun is one of the few places in Florida to bareboat over to the Bahamas. Boats are older and not perfect, but once the dock lines come off you never see the nicks and scuffs again.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by Tornadosailing

Not only let you, but expect you to. Last time in I was lining up with one of their slips and they waved me off. The guy pointed to the other end to put me in a slip that was no more than two feet wider than the boat. I said it wouldn't fit, he said it would, and it did. Nailed it on my first try.

Florida Yacht Charter, Sales, Rentals, & Management - Fun In The Sun is one of the few places in Florida to bareboat over to the Bahamas. Boats are older and not perfect, but once the dock lines come off you never see the nicks and scuffs again.

Good for you, good experience building. Many have their crew take the boat in and out.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

On the 44 it is not a pronounced, on the 50 the affect is worse from just thrust.

A bareboat company lets you bring it back in? Many have their own crew dock the boats (at the base anyway).

Thinking back on this it may be a matter of degree by model of boat. I dont recall it being so bad on the sub 50 footers, but on a 50 I used to run a lot it was quite pronounced. Prop type could have an affect too...props w better reverse thrust being worse.

Haven't driven any of the newer bigger Lagoons yet, but do have friends who are full time pro crew on one...will ask.

Any Lagoon 50, or bigger, owners out there who can chime in?

[Lambretta]

Hmmm ..... was an issue for me ...... I chartered a 450 F last year for two weeks. On the second day we came side on to a dock finger (with the dock on the port side and it got pretty shallow on the starboard side really quickly, so little space to play with .... so coming in was fine ...... but when I left the dock later (being blissfully unaware of the rudder placement!) I put the motors astern and wham ..... the wheel was ripped so forcefully from my hand that it hurt the next day especially as I was not expecting it ! It also crashed the auto pilot (which we rebooted later - it was obviously not engaged at the time) and the noise of the rudder arm hitting the stock was a tad disconcerting as it felt like we had hit something!

When I got home my good mate (who is a Lagoon agent) told me the charter business should have warned me about this issue!
Needless to say I did not repeat this mistake for the rest of the charter

Also (IMHO) the stern view of the sugar scoops is really poor on the 450F (so one has to drop a section of the coachroof when med mooring at a dock (fortunately we did little of this) so we had one person calling the distance and me firmly holding the wheel when going astern ....... could be an issue when short handed or with a novice crew

[Lambretta]

. Prop type could have an affect too...props w better reverse thrust being worse.

Valid point ....... we had folding props on our 450F that we chartered and the reverse thrust was very impressive (Varifold) ...... see my earlier post

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by Lambretta

. Prop type could have an affect too...props w better reverse thrust being worse.

Valid point ....... we had folding props on our 450F that we chartered and the reverse thrust was very impressive (Varifold) ...... see my earlier post

The 50 I used to run had folding props too, w strong reverse thrust, dont recall the make.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by Lambretta

Hmmm ..... was an issue for me ...... I chartered a 450 F last year for two weeks. On the second day we came side on to a dock finger (with the dock on the port side and it got pretty shallow on the starboard side really quickly, so little space to play with .... so coming in was fine ...... but when I left the dock later (being blissfully unaware of the rudder placement!) I put the motors astern and wham ..... the wheel was ripped so forcefully from my hand that it hurt the next day especially as I was not expecting it ! It also crashed the auto pilot (which we rebooted later - it was obviously not engaged at the time) and the noise of the rudder arm hitting the stock was a tad disconcerting as it felt like we had hit something!

When I got home my good mate (who is a Lagoon agent) told me the charter business should have warned me about this issue!
Needless to say I did not repeat this mistake for the rest of the charter

Also (IMHO) the stern view of the sugar scoops is really poor on the 450F (so one has to drop a section of the coachroof when med mooring at a dock (fortunately we did little of this) so we had one person calling the distance and me firmly holding the wheel when going astern ....... could be an issue when short handed or with a novice crew

That same sort of dramatic response, rip the wheel from your hands and potentially damage the steering gear, was the same I got on the L50 I used to run.

This was totally in response to reverse thrust...essentially no way on and maneuvering in close quarters.

[hmeilman]

The benefit of having the engines aft is access. They can easily be serviced and even removed from the boat. They are separate from the living quarters. No need to move a mattress to check the oil. Don't recall any maneuvering issues on a 380.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by hmeilman

The benefit of having the engines aft is access. They can easily be serviced and even removed from the boat. They are separate from the living quarters. No need to move a mattress to check the oil. Don't recall any maneuvering issues on a 380.

Different issue. On many cats whether the rudders are for or aft of props then engines are still accessible from an aft hatch.

[Factor]

It isnt done because its a great idea from a dynamic design or seaworthiness or or control or navigation issue. Its purely about the inside of the boat. For lagoon everything is about the accommodation.

[Bean Counter]

So we are talking rudder in front of the sail drive. The rudder posts are in a strong secure position in the hull. The cross hull steering bar is easily set up to be operated by wire and pulley system, the auto pilot attaches nicely. To change all this to put the prop in front of the rudder you would either need to move the engine and sail drive forward of the rudder post and so be in the aft cabin under the bed (which no one wants), or move the rudder back to the aft end of the engine compartment, in which case there would be no rudder bar, it would either need hydraulics or more complicated cables and pulley routing, plus reinforcement of the rudder post etc etc etc. I think the solid simple arrangement of where rudders are now is more robust, and happy to put up with reverse thrust - it only takes a day to get used to it (two for slow learners)

[Tornadosailing]

Originally Posted by Bean Counter

So we are talking rudder in front of the sail drive. The rudder posts are in a strong secure position in the hull. The cross hull steering bar is easily set up to be operated by wire and pulley system, the auto pilot attaches nicely. To change all this to put the prop in front of the rudder you would either need to move the engine and sail drive forward of the rudder post and so be in the aft cabin under the bed (which no one wants), or move the rudder back to the aft end of the engine compartment, in which case there would be no rudder bar, it would either need hydraulics or more complicated cables and pulley routing, plus reinforcement of the rudder post etc etc etc. I think the solid simple arrangement of where rudders are now is more robust, and happy to put up with reverse thrust - it only takes a day to get used to it (two for slow learners)

I guess I've got it all. Saildrives in front of the rudders, cross bar steering, simple cable steering control, and the motors are not under the beds. Steering cable and pulley routing are not complex, certainly less complex than a Lagoon flybridge. If you can imagine the Lagoon with the motor pushed to the front of the engine compartment fairly close to the bulkhead, and the rudder post pushed to the back of the engine compartment, that's what I have. Still have a crossbar, although it has an upward dog leg in it. The steering cables simply have to be moved aft about the length of the motors. No increase in complexity there.

Is the Lagoon system more robust? Probably. The Lagoon cross bar is beefier and has no dog leg in it. Not sure if the rudder post reinforcements on the Lagoon are beefier, but there's a good chance they are as they are fully boxed and mine aren't. It's all a trade off isn't it?