Lagoon mast postion

[BigBeakie]

Look, I realise you may be feeling uncomfortable about this topic, as it raises a question about how a particular design and structural issue is handled.

I have explained the issue of aft mast compression point loading as it has been explained to me by a couple of very good multihull naval architects, one of them being Lock Crowther many years ago when he recognised this issue re aft mast placement. So don't shoot the messenger here, I am just asking "How do Lagoon do it? What materials are used? Is there a medium and longer term corrosion concern, or not?"

You know their products very well, so can you shed any light on the matter?

Has anyone had a factory tour and seen how this beam is done?

And yes, after short listing Outremer 51, St Francis 50 & FP Saba 50, we are building hull #1 of the new Freeflow 50 design where there has been a great deal of engineering thought & design put into how the aft mast is done so the boat ends up being strong, stiff and light.

[tuskie]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

I thought I was clear that I asked several Lagoon reps about the aft mast support construction, without any credible response. I asked because I do not know the answer.

It may come as a surprise, but most salesmen don't know much about the products they sell. At least, most of the Lagoon reps admitted their lack of knowledge.

You failed to mention the source of your story about the VPLP guys sneaking a peek at Nathan Stanton's design in China. It sounds like a salesman's story; unverifiable but hard to disprove. Funny thing is that many salesmen like to tell such stories and generally put sh-t on the opposition; then next year the same guy is selling the other brand with new and different stories about his old brand.

If this story is true it wouldn't be the first time that a novel idea is "stolen" by a big designer from a little guy. Unless it was protected by a filed patent it is legal and legitimate. Either way, if you choose to manufacture in China, Vietnam etc. expect theft of any intellectual property worth stealing.

I'm still confused about your posts. Firstly, you use animation to warn about a dangerous Lagoon flaw. Then you relate the story of how VPLP spied and stole Nathan Stanton's clever design of composite beam support, but then decided to use a mild steel beam instead in the Lagoon design. Finally, you say that you don't really know.

[PaulinOz]

"I realise you may be feeling uncomfortable about this topic, as it raises a question about how a particular design and structural issue is handled."

No I do not feel uncomfortable at all about the topic as such. What I feel uncomfortable about is yourself making a statement about the Dangers of purchasing a particular design from a company, based on information you do not seem to have.

"As has been pointed out before, anyone considering an aft mast rig from Lagoon would be well advised to consider very, very carefully "

Even to the point of adding a couple of dramatic danger symbols to your post. After questioning you on what you base this perceived danger of design and construction on, I am still left with your words again

"I am just asking "How do Lagoon do it? What materials are used? Is there a medium and longer term corrosion concern, or not?"

So you still seem to be implying that there is some sort corrosion issue with the design / construction on the L52 mast support, but based on what?

You do not know how it is designed/constructed otherwise you would not keep asking.

As to what you seem to actually know at present, about this perceived by yourself issue, I am left in the dark other than your statement.

"I have explained the issue of aft mast compression point loading as it has been explained to me by a couple of very good multihull naval architects, one of them being Lock Crowther "

The conversation With Lock Crowther (1940-1993) at least 24 years or more ago was about general design principals at best, not related to the specific alleged stolen design or Lagoon construction details of the L52.

So we are left believing rightly or wrongly that your concerns about the dangers of the L52 design and construction must have come from the other "very good multihull naval architect" you referred to in your comment.

If he knew how the design/construction was carried out by Lagoon, you would not keep asking "How do Lagoon do it? What materials are used?"

Obviously you do not wish to name this "other very good multihull naval architect" or you would have along side Lock's name.

So I ask once again, what actual facts do you have for sounding the danger warning on the L52 design/construction method?


On the more important issue, congratulations on the "we are building hull #1 of the new Freeflow 50".

I had a look at Free Flows website but could not see a 50.

[BigBeakie]

Tuskie,

You're right, it came as no surprise that Lagoon salesmen did not know much about how their product is made and what materials it is made from. That's probably a reflection of how interested their customers are in such matters.

My source is the people who were there at the time and were eye witnesses. Also confirmed in my conversation with a staff of the Chinese yard. And I also have a photo of VPLP there at the time. Will that do? Do you really think someone would just make up something like this?

And you're right again about IP being regularly ripped off in China, and yes it is to be expected IP property rights mean nothing in China despite anything they say to the contrary is BS. However what was surprising to me was that VPLP, who I had held in high esteem, would engage in such behaviour. And by the way, it went well beyond "sneaking a peek".

And what is it that confuses you, exactly? You stated what I have said pretty accurately. The call to pay attention is regarding me being told, by a Lagoon technical rep, that it was a mild steel beam encased in fiberglass.

I think that is a reasonable cause for concern. IF it is true.

[tuskie]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

Tuskie,

And what is it that confuses you, exactly?

What confuses me exactly is this statement of yours:

"However, the reality is that VPLP actually "borrowed" this idea and execution from a cruising catamaran*that was being built in*China."

You then contradict yourself by stating that you understand the execution of this VPLP design by Lagoon was totally different ie. a steel beam. Finally, you admit that you don't know how Lagoon supports it's mast.

[PaulinOz]

Quote" My source is the people who were there at the time and were eye witnesses. Also confirmed in my conversation with a staff of the Chinese yard. And I also have a photo of VPLP there at the time. Will that do? Do you really think someone would just make up something like this?"

So you are just a customer that is going into bat for Free Flow Catamarans and Stanton Design against Lagoon / VPLP on the Cruisers Forum?

Your statement concerned me "we are building hull #1 of the new Freeflow 50"

Most people would write as a customer, I am having hull #1 built, not "we are building".

Your second ever contribution was to start a thread on the Free Flow 46
3 years ago.

Quote from above thread "As I said, a best kept secret. But I don't think it will stay that way as more of these get seen and experienced. One of those boats where the photos do not do it justice, and I mean in a good way. Sometimes boats do not live up to their marketing hype and "special effects" photos, but this was a different experience.

If any questions, I'll do my best to answer."

How many 46's have now been built world wide?

Did it live up to your "marketing hype"

"BigBeakie" what if any is your connection to Free Flow Catamarans and Stanton Design ?

My only concern is from what stand point you are passing comments on the fit for purpose of Lagoon and other brands here on the Cruisers Forum.

[tuskie]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

Look, I realise you may be feeling uncomfortable about this topic, as it raises a question about how a particular design and structural issue is handled.

I have explained the issue of aft mast compression point loading as it has been explained to me by a couple of very good multihull naval architects, one of them being Lock Crowther many years ago when he recognised this issue re aft mast placement. So don't shoot the messenger here, I am just asking "How do Lagoon do it? What materials are used? Is there a medium and longer term corrosion concern, or not?"

You know their products very well, so can you shed any light on the matter?

Has anyone had a factory tour and seen how this beam is done?

And yes, after short listing Outremer 51, St Francis 50 & FP Saba 50, we are building hull #1 of the new Freeflow 50 design where there has been a great deal of engineering thought & design put into how the aft mast is done so the boat ends up being strong, stiff and light.

Without any guesswork, fake#news or "a bloke told me facts", it is fairly obvious how Lagoon supports the mast of the new L50. Partialy, at least. A big shiny stainless steel mast compression post right in the middle, just inside the saloon. Have a look for yourself in the photos posted (pardon the pun) on this thread.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...50-190898.html

[BigBeakie]

Originally Posted by tuskie

What confuses me exactly is this statement of yours:

"However, the reality is that VPLP actually "borrowed" this idea and execution from a cruising catamaran*that was being built in*China."

You then contradict yourself by stating that you understand the execution of this VPLP design by Lagoon was totally different ie. a steel beam. Finally, you admit that you don't know how Lagoon supports it's mast.

Ah, Ok I see your point. Using the word "execution" was not correct by me. They most certainly did not use anything similar to the execution of the boat in China. They came up with their own "engineering solution", which was to use a beam of some metallic material or other, even though presumably they were trying to save weight??? I'm just going on some references to metal beams in articles on the L52 when it came out, and what Lagoon people have said at boat shows.

I never admitted I "don't know how Lagoon supports it's mast". I believe Lagoon when they say they use a transverse beam. What I did say was that I don't know what metal they use in their transverse beam.

Worst case, it is mild steel, and will corrode. Best case, it is stainless, but I do not think there are structural RSJ's /I-beams made in 316 stainless. I'm happy to be corrected on that point, of course.

[BigBeakie]

Originally Posted by tuskie

Without any guesswork, fake#news or "a bloke told me facts", it is fairly obvious how Lagoon supports the mast of the new L50. Partialy, at least. A big shiny stainless steel mast compression post right in the middle, just inside the saloon. Have a look for yourself in the photos posted (pardon the pun) on this thread.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...50-190898.html

Oh Tuskie, now really! Surely you know more about boats than that?

What do you think supports the compression post? What is it you think we have been discussing here? What do you think it takes to support about double the weight of the L52 at the end of the compression post i.e. about 1.8 x 26,033 kg ( lightship displacement of L52) or over 40 Tons kgf?

Do you even understand what mast compression is?

[BigBeakie]

PaulinOz,

Nice try at the diversion & deflection tactic But this is thread drift away from the Lagoon mast beam issue.

But to humour you and satisfy your curiosity, my wife and I are the first customers of this new FF50 design that arose from long conversations with the designer on what he wanted to do in updating the FF46. Yes, it has been a long process, but suited our timeframes. We have no financial interest in Freeflow or Stanton or anybode else, other than shelling out lots of money.

BUT, we have been very involved and interested in the development of this new design from the get go, we have both had input into that process, and also in finding the builder. I offered to help with any sales enquires and my wife has helped with marketing ideas, and interior design aspects. We do not get paid in any way for any of this, we are both retired.

We are making some of the bits for the boat because it's fun and we think they are better; we have found new chain for the boat which is stronger and lighter (8mm G100, breaking strength 11Ton with 20% elongation) and better galvanised than what is available; we have helped design a new tender that sails well and rows well and motors; etc.

So when I use the word "we", it is because it has been a 100% collaborative effort all the way between the lead customer (us), the designer Nathan Stanton and the builder. Force of habit

And lastly, I have had an interest in sailing multihull design for many years and have helped build a couple of cats where I learned the importance of using good materials. So when the largest and most successful (financially) catamaran builder tells me they solve the mast compression issue with a mild steel RSJ transverse beam wrapped in oxygen rich fiberglass, after I pick my jaw up off the floor, I have some questions. Is that OK with you?

[UpOnStands]

Because of the change to the rig and to make sure the boats are as safe as possible, Lagoon had to come up with a way to support the mast on top of the bridgedeck instead of at the forward bulkhead. The solution was to create a massive structural grid in the bridgedeck with a large fiberglass girder running from the aft to the forward main bulkheads that is in turn secured to the hulls on both sides with lateral stringers.

The New Lagoons Arrive | Multihulls Quarterly
published Spring 2013
But could be a different 52 Lagoon.
All other reviews talk about an "infused beam" but while suggestive is not definitive?

[arsenelupiga]

symphaty if intelectual rights were invaded. however if one outsources production in chindia and expect good design ideas will not be stolen is out of his mind. it is easy to pay worker $1000 and get all details with pics delivered by mail, maybe even for $200. or even can find whole boat design on alibaba for $1500 for 1 btc.

[PaulinOz]

Thanks for answering the question re your interest in the company.

You may not be paid (We do not get paid in any way for any of this, we are both retired.) but I would suggest you seem to have a very big interest Quote"we have been very involved and interested in the development of this new design from the get go, we have both had input into that process, and also in finding the builder. I offered to help with any sales enquires and my wife has helped with marketing ideas, and interior design aspects.

So your comments here are made with the hat on of an unpaid sales, marketing and interior design unpaid consultant.

Obviously way more involved with the company designing and building your boat than the average boat purchaser is or can be.

That sort of involvement would never occur or be tolerated by an International production boat manufacturer. They will not allow the owner to photograph there boat on the production line let alone another or competitive naval architect.

The question needs to be asked if this happened as you report. Why was VPLP ever allowed into a production facility to view some design elements that the designer obviously seems not happy that they subsequently viewed.

I notice the question I posed "How many 46's have now been built world wide?" did not get answered I guess this was just a thread drift to far for you.

The Free Flow 46 Keshi and the then new Free Flow 52 where both manufactured by the time VPLP where in China looking at the design of the Free Flow 52.

So how many Free Flows of any size other than the above mentioned ones have been launched since back then?

With currently over 300 Lagoons already designed, built, sold and sailing the world with your allegedly faultily implemented, stolen design, aft mast placement, since VPLP visited Free Flow Catamarans.

I guess we will not have to wait to much longer for the gloom and doom to start occurring.

[Bean Counter]

Originally Posted by Just Another Sa

Are you sure about that has anything to do with factory?
A lot of unsupported or even false claims, and also in links given as sources like: Les voiles
having a bogus formula for induced drag as an example.
And lagoon inside gave that link to support there reasoning for sloop rig aerodynamics, while that link is only about a cat rig, meaning mainsail only.
Calculating AR for main only in a sloop rig has no aerodynamic merit at all.
Higher angle between mast and forestay means higher mast compression, not less, for a given headstay tension or a given luff sag, because it requires more load from the shrouds to support horizontal loads induced by the forestay, while the difference in tension of leeward and windward shrouds remain the same for a given heelingmoment (same sail area and windspeed & -angle).
Both articles are surprisingly low quality for anything to do with factory and gave the impression they have no idea what they were talking about.
I would sure hope any personnel responsible for the content of that blog have nothing to do with factory.

Yes, my mistake, the Post was from Alex from Lagoon, but this does not confirm Alex as an employee of Lagoon, apologies for not digging deep enough.

[Lance Reynolds]

So here goes and I am ducking the counter attack from the Lagoon owners right now.
I realise there are reasons people like the comforts of the big wide hulled low performance French production boats but for years the boat show displays and magazine reviews have bragged about their performance .
So I wonder why they have made such a move to improve performance , maybe hobbie horsing was something you just lived with or it never happens much in enclosed waters .
This discussion also opens up opinions and my long held belief that these boats are not necessarily well built or engineered for longevity.
(Try sueing me for my beliefs).
BBeakie mentions these boats still use catalyst based resins wow imo. vinylester has some good properties but polyester is not really that water proof.
These production boats command high sale prices maybe due to the bling interiors but in the long run do tbe economics add up buyer beware.
Apart from increased curing time toxicity Epoxy Resin produces excellant water resistant composites .
The French know this they do make some of the best composite racing multis around along with Australia and New Zealand.
It seems IF some of these construction techniques are true then the production cost factors could have compromised quality .