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Old 21-07-2021, 14:25   #106
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Re: Lagoon cats now on discount...

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Originally Posted by crayiii View Post
Clearly there is an issue but it looks like Lagoon are working to make it right.
There is no "making it right." Based on other goons reporting similar bulkhead issues, if a consistent pattern can be demonstrated, then this moves beyond warranty and into fraud territory.

For example there is that sailing couple who were sold counterfeit anchor chain. There are departments at both federal and state levels that regulate entire professions and trades because of the potential for fraud.

(Remember sinclairs the jungle that drove the momentum to create the fda?)

All it requires is a ford pinto type of smoking gun memo to finish them off.
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Old 21-07-2021, 14:42   #107
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Re: Lagoon cats now on discount...

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Originally Posted by Snerf1 View Post
There is no "making it right." Based on other goons reporting similar bulkhead issues, if a consistent pattern can be demonstrated, then this moves beyond warranty and into fraud territory.

For example there is that sailing couple who were sold counterfeit anchor chain. There are departments at both federal and state levels that regulate entire professions and trades because of the potential for fraud.

(Remember sinclairs the jungle that drove the momentum to create the fda?)

All it requires is a ford pinto type of smoking gun memo to finish them off.
I bet we see the 46s announced soon. I'll get on that list as soon as possible.
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Old 21-07-2021, 15:46   #108
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Re: Lagoon cats now on discount...

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Originally Posted by Snerf1 View Post
There is no "making it right." Based on other goons reporting similar bulkhead issues, if a consistent pattern can be demonstrated, then this moves beyond warranty and into fraud territory.

For example there is that sailing couple who were sold counterfeit anchor chain. There are departments at both federal and state levels that regulate entire professions and trades because of the potential for fraud.

(Remember sinclairs the jungle that drove the momentum to create the fda?)

All it requires is a ford pinto type of smoking gun memo to finish them off.
Wouldn’t fraud require intent? I doubt the intent was there because it looks like all they needed was to double up that plywood and throw a few oz more glass on there and it would be good to go, so they didn’t save any money or other benefits by making them weak there. It was simply an oversight. Now, maybe they can shift blame onto the design firm but that’s kinda shitty for owners who didn’t give 600$k to a design firm, they gave it to lagoon and expected a safe product that would at the very least not fall apart structurally in its first decade of life.
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Old 21-07-2021, 16:36   #109
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Re: Lagoon cats now on discount...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snerf1 View Post
There is no "making it right." Based on other goons reporting similar bulkhead issues, if a consistent pattern can be demonstrated, then this moves beyond warranty and into fraud territory.

For example there is that sailing couple who were sold counterfeit anchor chain. There are departments at both federal and state levels that regulate entire professions and trades because of the potential for fraud.

(Remember sinclairs the jungle that drove the momentum to create the fda?)

All it requires is a ford pinto type of smoking gun memo to finish them off.


Cars are highly regulated entities subjected to major type approvals processes by major economic blocks.

Private boats have nothing similar.

In practice establishing “ fraud “ or even a deliberate under design would be largely impossible in a private boat design. At worst it would result in a slap on the wrist
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Old 21-07-2021, 18:44   #110
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Re: Lagoon cats now on discount...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snerf1 View Post
There is no "making it right." Based on other goons reporting similar bulkhead issues, if a consistent pattern can be demonstrated, then this moves beyond warranty and into fraud territory.

For example there is that sailing couple who were sold counterfeit anchor chain. There are departments at both federal and state levels that regulate entire professions and trades because of the potential for fraud.

(Remember sinclairs the jungle that drove the momentum to create the fda?)

All it requires is a ford pinto type of smoking gun memo to finish them off.
This is just getting carried away. There aren't Lagoons exploding with families in them here. These are people who had the money to spend $1M+ on a boat that has an issue with a bulkhead, a word that 99% of Americans probably don't even know the definition of! We're all big boys and girls here, if you have a problem deal with the company and if you can't negotiate a suitable solution take appropriate legal action. Those of us who are in a position to buy these boats have the resources needed to fight our own battles. Let the consumer protection departments at the state and federal level put their scarce resources were they belong, on products that are actually killing people or companies taking advantage of vulnerable populations. Comparing ourselves to workers in turn of the century meat packing plants... could we be any more tone deaf and entitled!
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Old 22-07-2021, 04:17   #111
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Re: Lagoon cats now on discount...

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Originally Posted by Snerf1 View Post
Based on other goons reporting similar bulkhead issues, if a consistent pattern can be demonstrated, then this moves beyond warranty and into fraud territory.
Please show me the reports of other Lagoon models that are affected.

Please include only those of boats with a known damage history. That excludes all hurricane damaged or chartered boats (which are grounded frequently from my experience).

I am not aware of any such reports. Maybe I haven't looked hard enough.

For the consumer rights I am more in line with redneckbob.
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Old 22-07-2021, 04:49   #112
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Re: Lagoon cats now on discount...

In the late 1970s, Uniflite Yachts was one of the world's largest builders, mostly power boats but their yards in PNW also built Valiant sailboat hulls. Then the blister years came followed by a class action lawsuit and promises of repair/replacement that eventually put the company out of business by about 1984.

Lagoon is in a tough spot if these allegations of systemic design or build defects are credible.

Peter
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Old 22-07-2021, 05:45   #113
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Re: Lagoon cats now on discount...

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Originally Posted by mvweebles View Post
In the late 1970s, Uniflite Yachts was one of the world's largest builders, mostly power boats but their yards in PNW also built Valiant sailboat hulls. Then the blister years came followed by a class action lawsuit and promises of repair/replacement that eventually put the company out of business by about 1984.

Lagoon is in a tough spot if these allegations of systemic design or build defects are credible.

Peter
Last time I checked France wasn't in the US and french companies aren't stupid. You will have to sue them on french soil with french laws. Good luck.

I see nothing that suggests this 450 problem is anything else but a miscalculation in the design of an external highly credited naval architect.
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Old 22-07-2021, 05:46   #114
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Re: Lagoon cats now on discount...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mvweebles View Post
In the late 1970s, Uniflite Yachts was one of the world's largest builders, mostly power boats but their yards in PNW also built Valiant sailboat hulls. Then the blister years came followed by a class action lawsuit and promises of repair/replacement that eventually put the company out of business by about 1984.

Lagoon is in a tough spot if these allegations of systemic design or build defects are credible.

Peter


Not really , class action in France isn’t possible and unless intent can be proven, lagoon can argue the yacht has been incorrectly used etc

That process could go on for years. Are owners going to leave the boat unrepaired all that time ?
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Old 22-07-2021, 06:16   #115
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Re: Lagoon cats now on discount...

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Not really , class action in France isn’t possible and unless intent can be proven, lagoon can argue the yacht has been incorrectly used etc

That process could go on for years. Are owners going to leave the boat unrepaired all that time ?
You may want to keep your day-job. I can assure you that Lagoon/Beneteau have an incorporated entity in the US; and I can assure you that a class-action would be brought as a civil matter, not a criminal one. In civil cases, 'intent' is mostly considered during the damages/penalty phase and can greatly magnify the award if the defendant has acted egregiously. The burden of proof in a civil case is quite low - a 'preponderance of evidence,' meaning more likely than not that the defendant knew or should have known that systemic defects in engineering, design, and/or construction led to the end product being materially compromised which caused the buyers harm. I doubt it would be a simple case, but given the number of Lagoon's built and the semi-affluent nature of the owners who can afford a yacht, I could easily see it gaining traction for a clever attorney. One of the difficulties in launching a class-action is identifying and assembling the plaintiffs. In the case of documented/registered vessels, that chore is greatly simplified.

I'm not suggesting anyone should/shouldn't sue or create a class action, just that there is precedence in the boating industry. But if the allegations of systemic defects are true and the affected owners are large enough, it's ripe for a class action. There is strength in numbers.

Peter
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Old 22-07-2021, 06:16   #116
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Re: Lagoon cats now on discount...

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Lagoons are very nice and seaworthy boats.
Apparently not
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Old 22-07-2021, 06:34   #117
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Re: Lagoon cats now on discount...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mvweebles View Post
You may want to keep your day-job. I can assure you that Lagoon/Beneteau have an incorporated entity in the US; and I can assure you that a class-action would be brought as a civil matter, not a criminal one.
Peter
If someone gets a hold of Lagoon in the US this may work.
But I wonder if that Lagoon entity owns more than some pre-covid boat show flyers.
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Old 22-07-2021, 06:38   #118
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Re: Lagoon cats now on discount...

What a bizzare series of replies. Reading the various deflections, denials and excuses, one might assume the boating industry is unique in its level of honesty and truthfulness.

I guess thats why surveyors are in so littel demand, and that the most common experiences of buyers are not unpleasant surprises and hidden defects, but rather enjoyable and happy discoveries of extra features & benefits.

?

If someone was asking questions on a build thread about the adequacy of installing/repairing proposed bulwarks similar to goons, what do you imagine the community reaction would be like?

All that is required to objectively see and understand this
situation is to drop any emotional defense. Consider it within the context of your years of experience dealing with yards, outfitters, suppliers, personnel, etc.

Now do you see clearly?
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Old 22-07-2021, 08:25   #119
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Re: Lagoon cats now on discount...

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Originally Posted by rabbi View Post
Please show me the reports of other Lagoon models that are affected.

Please include only those of boats with a known damage history. That excludes all hurricane damaged or chartered boats (which are grounded frequently from my experience).

I am not aware of any such reports. Maybe I haven't looked hard enough.

For the consumer rights I am more in line with redneckbob.
This.

I'm not saying it's not an issue, I'm just saying it's too early in the process to start throwing names around and blaming people. I think Colin shot himself in the foot on this one.
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Old 22-07-2021, 12:41   #120
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Re: Lagoon cats now on discount...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snerf1 View Post
What a bizzare series of replies. Reading the various deflections, denials and excuses, one might assume the boating industry is unique in its level of honesty and truthfulness.

I guess thats why surveyors are in so littel demand, and that the most common experiences of buyers are not unpleasant surprises and hidden defects, but rather enjoyable and happy discoveries of extra features & benefits.

?

If someone was asking questions on a build thread about the adequacy of installing/repairing proposed bulwarks similar to goons, what do you imagine the community reaction would be like?

All that is required to objectively see and understand this
situation is to drop any emotional defense. Consider it within the context of your years of experience dealing with yards, outfitters, suppliers, personnel, etc.

Now do you see clearly?
Bizarre is deciding that a bulkhead defect in a $1M+ boat is in any way equivalent to Ford Pintos blowing up with families in them or the conditions in meat packing plants in 1905.

I own a Fountaine Pajot, so I've got nothing to bias me except a friendly rivalry against Lagoon owners and I most certainly do "see clearly". What I see are a couple people on this thread, you among them, trying to start an outrage machine to turn a molehill into a mountain. Sure, it looks like a major boat manufacturer may have built a class of boats with a defect. Be a grownup and deal with it if you're impacted by negotiating with them and if that doesn't work taking legal action. If you don't own one of these boats, then one wonders why you're feeling the need to manufacture the outrage? What exactly are you trying to accomplish here?
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