Lagoon cats now on discount...

[lestersails]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I would suggest the opposite that the certified test boat is fine as I suspect it was carefully built.

Wouldn't it be informative to open up that boat and take a look!

[lestersails]

Originally Posted by David B

Thank you for that.

I see what people are on about now.

Hmm - design flaw in my book.

Needs to be recognised and sorted.

Would love to hear a naval engineer's view of this. And don't we need to know the design spec for the bulkheads? Has anyone seen the original design and spec?
One thing I wonder about - was the wood in these bulkheads specced on an assumption that they worked via tensile strength and what ended up happening is that they were subjected to compression instead?

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by Americanrancher

You are completely out of touch with reality, yard workers for $20 an hour? Not in any developed country! In CA and FL in the US try $120 an hour, more in the EU and in the Caribbean you would be hard pressed to find labor qualified to do the work at any price. It would be cheaper for Lagoon and better for the owners to scrap the boats and replace them with new boats at a discount.

If you hire such a guy, you will pay over $100 but that is not the companies cost base. I guess the cost base for Lagoon's own workers in France is under $50 per hour.

[Tupaia]

I believe some of the larger Lagoon power cats have had structural issues, so not necessarily rig related. I know of an early Lagoon 57/67? that had cracked bulkheads. There was also a thread on here a while ago about a 42 with bulkhead issues.


Maybe this is more of an structural "assembly" issue, ie the monocoque design process done in isolation, includes a deflection tolerance that is not allowed for in the more brittle "plywood" bulkheads that are added to the structure, resisting the deflections or causing hard points resulting in fatigue failure.

[fillintheblank]

I just wonder at what point does the value of a lagoon 45 become just the value of its parts, ie motors, rigs, water makers etc. I would expect that before too long the value is what ever it was a few months ago minus repair costs. Ie if they where $450k on average and the independent repair cost is 80k, the new value is $370k.

Yes I think the independent repair cost will be around 80k, as I dont think most people will accept cut up cabins and will want new cabinets. I dont think lagoon will pay that much. But I think a Colin repair with new cabinets would be.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by fillintheblank

I just wonder at what point does the value of a lagoon 45 become just the value of its parts, ie motors, rigs, water makers etc. I would expect that before too long the value is what ever it was a few months ago minus repair costs. Ie if they where $450k on average and the independent repair cost is 80k, the new value is $370k.

Yes I think the independent repair cost will be around 80k, as I dont think most people will accept cut up cabins and will want new cabinets. I dont think lagoon will pay that much. But I think a Colin repair with new cabinets would be.

Right now every boat that floats is being bought. Demand drives price

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by fillintheblank

I just wonder at what point does the value of a lagoon 45 become just the value of its parts, ie motors, rigs, water makers etc. I would expect that before too long the value is what ever it was a few months ago minus repair costs. Ie if they where $450k on average and the independent repair cost is 80k, the new value is $370k.

Yes I think the independent repair cost will be around 80k, as I dont think most people will accept cut up cabins and will want new cabinets. I dont think lagoon will pay that much. But I think a Colin repair with new cabinets would be.

Market will regulate the price. If you are an owner and want to sell for 450k and get an offer 370k claiming 80k for bulkhead issues, you may ask the next boatyard for a quote and settle for 450k with bulkheads repaired on your bill, then let the yard do the work for 40k, or just reject the offer and wait for the next buyer.

If you have time, let Lagoon pay the repair and sell then for 450k.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Market will regulate the price. If you are an owner and want to sell for 450k and get an offer 370k claiming 80k for bulkhead issues, you may ask the next boatyard for a quote and settle for 450k with bulkheads repaired on your bill, then let the yard do the work for 40k, or just reject the offer and wait for the next buyer.

If you have time, let Lagoon pay the repair and sell then for 450k.

That assumes that the market still supports 450k for a repaired / undamaged boat.
Very few informed buyers will purchase a 450 in the current situation. Most will stand at the side line and watch if the drama unfolds or gets fixed quickly.
Many risk-averse buyers have scratched this model off their shortlist forever.

So the market value of any 450 has dropped and will continue to drop for some time. It will remain so until this becomes a well documented issue, with a documented repair procedure and a record of successful repairs.
And even then it's still a boat carrying a stigma...
As an owner I would try to keep quick & easy access to these bulkheads, as any buyer will want to view them.


The question is: with the 400 and 450 having documented issues will this permanently damage the whole brand and all models, or just those affected?
Only time will tell.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by rabbi

It will remain so until this becomes a well documented issue, with a documented repair procedure and a record of successful repairs.

The question is: with the 400 and 450 having documented issues will this permanently damage the whole brand and all models, or just those affected?
Only time will tell.

Will insurance companies be less inclined to insure vessels repaired outside of their observance or control. Even if documentation is in place it will undoubtedly add another level of uncertainty. Interesting to see if premiums rise across the range. Insurance companies don't pay out on inherent defects but are still liable for potential total loses.

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by rabbi

That assumes that the market still supports 450k for a repaired / undamaged boat.

Very few informed buyers will purchase a 450 in the current situation. Most will stand at the side line and watch if the drama unfolds or gets fixed quickly.

Many risk-averse buyers have scratched this model off their shortlist forever.



So the market value of any 450 has dropped and will continue to drop for some time. It will remain so until this becomes a well documented issue, with a documented repair procedure and a record of successful repairs.

And even then it's still a boat carrying a stigma...

As an owner I would try to keep quick & easy access to these bulkheads, as any buyer will want to view them.





The question is: with the 400 and 450 having documented issues will this permanently damage the whole brand and all models, or just those affected?

Only time will tell.

True, time will tell. I am more optimistic. New Lagoons are built and sold, every year more expensive and the list is long. The old boats preserve their value quite well, nothing wrong with them when fixed, still great liveaboard boats. There may be a ditch for a year or two, but the trend is your friend.

The FP Oranas had a bad reputation for osmosis, but in the meantime prices are quite stable. Even the old TPI Lagoons are very wanted and more expensive on the market then when they were new.

Even with broken bulkheads fixer upper there is a market for them. Total sunken hurricane wrecks are resurrected, and this is worse than 2 plywood sheets and some epoxy.

There is a lot of noise and beating around the bush, but there are serious buyers too that see an opportunity.

[HighTemp]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

Will insurance companies be less inclined to insure vessels repaired outside of their observance or control. Even if documentation is in place it will undoubtedly add another level of uncertainty. Interesting to see if premiums rise across the range. Insurance companies don't pay out on inherent defects but are still liable for potential total loses.

If I were to find myself in this unfortunate position, I think that I would cut a deal with a local surveyor to drop by and take a look, and record things once in a while as the repairs are being performed. I suspect that the insurance companies would likely issue a policy based on the surveyors report if it were thorough.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

There is a lot of noise and beating around the bush, but there are serious buyers too that see an opportunity.

Some risk-takers see an opportunity, but many (most?) will just see a risk, at least financially.
The impact on resale value may be way harder to swallow than a 30k repair bill.

[CatNewBee]

Time will tell, there are ups and downs. Lagoons are very nice and seaworthy boats. Once fixed, there is no reason to reject them, even unfixed they are worth the effort. As Lagoon seams to step in, the risk of financial losses for fixing is also quite limited.

The reputation of the brand has got some scratches, but it will buff out... [emoji6]

[Chili Palmer]

I have no skin in this game and only a viewer of his channel who is observant.

But at 5:21 and 9:02 in this video when he's discussing how this boat has never seen a hurricane and never run aground.

I sure would appreciate it if he were to zoom in on the front of the port keel. To me, it looks like damage but given my inexperience with boats I would need to see a close up view.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoXWKz4Odsg

Screen print attached.

Two things I'll point out - 1) I saw this before seeing this thread and the fact this thread existed is the only reason I posted this and 2) He has no idea what the history of that boat is. As he specifically states - that boat has not run aground but he doesn't know the owner, it is a "heavily" chartered boat, etc. Simply put, he has not idea where that boat has been for its entire life and he's putting his name on the line for the words of others.

Do I think there could be an issue, yep, do I think they jumped the gun, yep. Do I think they did what they thought was best, yep. Would I have done it that way, nope.

[crayiii]

Originally Posted by Chili Palmer

I have no skin in this game and only a viewer of his channel who is observant.

But at 5:21 and 9:02 in this video when he's discussing how this boat has never seen a hurricane and never run aground.

I sure would appreciate it if he were to zoom in on the front of the port keel. To me, it looks like damage but given my inexperience with boats I would need to see a close up view.

Screen print attached.

Two things I'll point out - 1) I saw this before seeing this thread and the fact this thread existed is the only reason I posted this and 2) He has no idea what the history of that boat is. As he specifically states - that boat has not run aground but he doesn't know the owner, it is a "heavily" chartered boat, etc. Simply put, he has not idea where that boat has been for its entire life and he's putting his name on the line for the words of others.

Do I think there could be an issue, yep, do I think they jumped the gun, yep. Do I think they did what they thought was best, yep. Would I have done it that way, nope.

My feel for that situation is that he's pissed that his "movie star" status didn't earn him special treatment from Lagoon. He bought a totaled boat and overlooked a major issue, even though he says he's some type of wizard engineer and woodworker.

Lagoon still sent someone and provides technical assistance but he still wants to talk $&(-

Clearly there is an issue but it looks like Lagoon are working to make it right.