Lagoon 42 - Balsa core or foam core

[Dirk01]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Do you wanna go sailing or building a boat the next 10 years?

Suggest to get a older Catana, they are foam cored, refit to your liking and Go really sailing.

Two years for outfitting the cat. Not 10.
And I've to care for two kids (the mother does not). 2024 + 2years and the kids are old enough to do their own thing. Due to German tax law I've to wait at least until end of 2024 before I can sell my house (the second one is intended to be for rent) or waive 75 k€.

No way to shorten anything even I really would like to start tomorrow.

Cheers
Dirk

P.S.: I don't like the totally exposed steering. I'd like to cruise not race.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Dirk01

Two years for outfitting the cat. Not 10.
And I've to care for two kids (the mother does not). 2024 + 2years and the kids are old enough to do their own thing. Due to German tax law I've to wait at least until end of 2024 before I can sell my house (the second one is intended to be for rent) or waive 75 k€.

No way to shorten anything even I really would like to start tomorrow.

Cheers
Dirk

P.S.: I don't like the totally exposed steering. I'd like to cruise not race.

How many boats did you outfit or just refit till now?
2 years with 5 people helping you constantly? Everything takes triple time you plan with boats...neverever in 2 years

You can always find a working way if you want
Eg finance it with very low monthly rates, give your house as security and 2024 you just pay back all and go sailing now...if you want you find a way if not you always find excuses.

My CEO said no way going sailing each year 3-6 month as GM, well Handed in my notice and then we talked...trail first year worked 8 month sailed 4 a year and after that for 6 years as I delivered more then before.
Last year I said done and Now retried with 50 and sailing the world.
Impossible due to many but actually no you just have to live with 20% of your last salary for the rest of your life...works for me.

Catanas are fast cruising cats and fast mean not racing but outsail weather, a transatlantic is 10-12days instead 22days means less chance to get hit by bad weather....older don‘t have outside helm, the 471 is the best to get.

Now you use the time and go 4 month sailing on the cat you like to buy via crewseeker or other opportunities, then you really know what you want and not. Done that before I got my Lavezzi. yes I would love to have a 471 but cannot afford it really and Lavezzi is the closest I can afford.
Well working another 10 years my ass off I easily could but I prefer to do it now with just a Lavezzi.

[Dirk01]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

How many boats did you outfit or just refit till now?
2 years with 5 people helping you constantly? Everything takes triple time you plan with boats...neverever in 2 years

You can always find a working way if you want
Eg finance it with very low monthly rates, give your house as security and 2024 you just pay back all and go sailing now...if you want you find a way if not you always find excuses.

My CEO said no way going sailing each year 3-6 month as GM, well Handed in my notice and then we talked...trail first year worked 8 month sailed 4 a year and after that for 6 years as I delivered more then before.
Last year I said done and Now retried with 50 and sailing the world.
Impossible due to many but actually no you just have to live with 20% of your last salary for the rest of your life...works for me.

Catanas are fast cruising cats and fast mean not racing but outsail weather, a transatlantic is 10-12days instead 22days means less chance to get hit by bad weather....older don‘t have outside helm, the 471 is the best to get.

Now you use the time and go 4 month sailing on the cat you like to buy via crewseeker or other opportunities, then you really know what you want and not. Done that before I got my Lavezzi. yes I would love to have a 471 but cannot afford it really and Lavezzi is the closest I can afford.
Well working another 10 years my ass off I easily could but I prefer to do it now with just a Lavezzi.

CaptainRivet (funny name BTW),
maybe you've overseen that I've to care for my two kids. One of them will need a lot more care over the next few years than you can imagine (and I don't intend to go into the details publicly). And maybe you've overseen that there is no mother who cares. It's my life of a loving father. I'm pretty sure that everybody else with a heart at the right place would do the same. My kids are and will ever be the center of my life. This is not an excuse!

Maybe your 20% is is my 60% I intend to live on. I know from other posts, that 3 k€ per month guarantees a nice living (starting with a new boat).

To introduce my background just a little bit:
I learnt how to sail during my study in the mid 80s, than changed to airplane (PPL A + B + C) for 15 years, than go back sailing and I've now something like 10k nm in my wake.

However, lets dive ito the facts of outfitting.
The internal outfitting takes, according to your post, 5 people for two years fulltime plus myself. So, 6 people at 8 hrs per day and 5 days a week and 40 weeks a year. This is nearly 40.000 working hrs. The Cruise Marine ship yard needs rougly 3 month for that work. Hence, there have to be 80 people at the same time on the boat. Or, if they are double as fast as I and my helping hands are, 40 people. The costs at a 10 €/hr rate (and that is, even in Vietnam, really cheap for a company with its overhead and taxes they've to pay). So, the working costs for the outfitting would be roughly 200 k€. Without the material costs which I estimate to another quarter mio. € or a bit more. So the costs for the entire hull with all hatches, windows, rudders and steering and working costs are at least only 1 € (roughly) due to the selling price of Max Cruise Marine.
Do you believe, that MJ-Sailing really plan to build their baby for the next 15 years or so (they build it out of the box with four hands for 95% of the time)? Surely not!

Here is my question into the CF to anybody who did a similar job, but under the following circumstances:
The entire hull is "watertight" and can be steered (so I can sail her through the canals to the shipyard nearby my living spot with two temporarily installed outboard motors). All interiors like bed frames, cabinets, doors, shelves, pantry, benches, the floors and so on are laser-cut and ready for mounting. I'm a mechanic (German apprenticeship) and a studied engineer with a strong electrical background. I've two years of advance planning for finding the right products to install and to prepare what can be prepared (roughly 10-15 hrs per week). The outfitting will be done on a shipyard where I can get help whenever four hands are needed.

How long do you estimate does it might take to outfit the yacht at fulltime? Or, the other way round, is my estimation of two years really totally wrong?

I would very much like to receive comprehensible answers. And I know in the meanwhile, that the CF has an incredible number of outspoken experts. Thank you in advance for that.

Cheers
Dirk

[Tupaia]

Wife and I took every spare hour for 1.5 years spread over 3 years while still working full time to fit out 44ft cat. The shell was complete, hatches, windows, steering, engines and rig. The inside was bare, no electrics, plumbing, sanitation, instrumentation, furniture, finishing or painting. Can be done but there won't be much time for your kids.


Estimate 30 hours/per week x2 for 75 weeks about 4500 man hours. "Re"fitting an existing boat could potentially take longer.

[Dirk01]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

Wife and I took every spare hour for 1.5 years spread over 3 years while still working full time to fit out 44ft cat. The shell was complete, hatches, windows, steering, engines and rig. The inside was bare, no electrics, plumbing, sanitation, instrumentation, furniture, finishing or painting. Can be done but there won't be much time for your kids.


Estimate 30 hours/per week x2 for 75 weeks about 4500 man hours. "Re"fitting an existing boat could potentially take longer.

My kids are "grown up". However, they need their father. One of them needs me potentionally more, but in phases. Due to the fact that I'm going to retire in 2024/ beginning 2025, I can plan my time without any consideration to other things.

What does it mean "every spare hour for 1.5 years spread over 3 years". How many hours did you invest at least? 4.500 hrs?

Cheers
Dirk

[rabbi]

Some older Lagoons are solid below the waterline, foam core above, balsa core decks. At least the earlier 380s are listed as foam cored hull above waterline but I don't know when that changed.
Then it was solid glass below waterline, balsa cored hull & deck.
More recent ones like 42 are all balsa core, hull and deck. But Lagoon does a pretty good job to make sure all hull / deck penetrations are in areas with solid uncored glass.


Older FP are foam cored. I had a FP Mahe, and it had no structural wood at all. I think the last foam cored model was the Lipari.
More recent ones are balsa cored as well.

Leopards are also balsa cored everywhere as far as I remember.

Then there are the smaller builders.


The main question is:
do you want to cruise on any acceptable cat that can handle the job, or do you prefer to spend the next few years to find & refit that "perfect boat"?


If building / outfitting is what you want to do for the next few years OK.

Otherwise get a boat that is more or less ready to go and work from there.
There are plenty of boats in your price range that will need only a few thousand to be ready for the first few months liveaboard cruising the Med. Then just continue to improve as you go.


Personally I'd do whatever it takes to go cruising with the kids - not after they left the nest. But thats just me

[rabbi]

BTW: How many people going with you?

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by Dirk01

What does it mean "every spare hour for 1.5 years spread over 3 years". How many hours did you invest at least? 4.500 hrs?

Cheers
Dirk

Exactly what I said, working day job, sailing in the summer and doing normal stuff (6 months) fitting out in the winter (6 months) 12 hour days at weekends and 1 or 2 hours in the evening during the week. So approx 30 hours / week, 25 weeks / year for 3 years and there was 2 of us, 4500 hours.


Didn't keep time sheets but that is a fair estimate.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Dirk01

CaptainRivet (funny name BTW),
maybe you've overseen that I've to care for my two kids. One of them will need a lot more care over the next few years than you can imagine (and I don't intend to go into the details publicly). And maybe you've overseen that there is no mother who cares. It's my life of a loving father. I'm pretty sure that everybody else with a heart at the right place would do the same. My kids are and will ever be the center of my life. This is not an excuse!

Maybe your 20% is is my 60% I intend to live on. I know from other posts, that 3 k€ per month guarantees a nice living (starting with a new boat).

To introduce my background just a little bit:
I learnt how to sail during my study in the mid 80s, than changed to airplane (PPL A + B + C) for 15 years, than go back sailing and I've now something like 10k nm in my wake.

However, lets dive ito the facts of outfitting.
The internal outfitting takes, according to your post, 5 people for two years fulltime plus myself. So, 6 people at 8 hrs per day and 5 days a week and 40 weeks a year. This is nearly 40.000 working hrs. The Cruise Marine ship yard needs rougly 3 month for that work. Hence, there have to be 80 people at the same time on the boat. Or, if they are double as fast as I and my helping hands are, 40 people. The costs at a 10 €/hr rate (and that is, even in Vietnam, really cheap for a company with its overhead and taxes they've to pay). So, the working costs for the outfitting would be roughly 200 k€. Without the material costs which I estimate to another quarter mio. € or a bit more. So the costs for the entire hull with all hatches, windows, rudders and steering and working costs are at least only 1 € (roughly) due to the selling price of Max Cruise Marine.
Do you believe, that MJ-Sailing really plan to build their baby for the next 15 years or so (they build it out of the box with four hands for 95% of the time)? Surely not!

Here is my question into the CF to anybody who did a similar job, but under the following circumstances:
The entire hull is "watertight" and can be steered (so I can sail her through the canals to the shipyard nearby my living spot with two temporarily installed outboard motors). All interiors like bed frames, cabinets, doors, shelves, pantry, benches, the floors and so on are laser-cut and ready for mounting. I'm a mechanic (German apprenticeship) and a studied engineer with a strong electrical background. I've two years of advance planning for finding the right products to install and to prepare what can be prepared (roughly 10-15 hrs per week). The outfitting will be done on a shipyard where I can get help whenever four hands are needed.

How long do you estimate does it might take to outfit the yacht at fulltime? Or, the other way round, is my estimation of two years really totally wrong?

I would very much like to receive comprehensible answers. And I know in the meanwhile, that the CF has an incredible number of outspoken experts. Thank you in advance for that.

Cheers
Dirk

Hi Dirk,
No offense. Family is important and just take them with and problem solved

Didn't said it takes 10000h which could in worst case actually happen.
You do it the first time, things go not like planed, the yard workers have no time when you need extra pair of hands.... So many things go wrong if you just rely on yourself. And it will end up much more expensive.
And a bew boat does not be the best place to start, it has more stuff that does not work then you imagine. Nothing is tested, things are different then planed...

My advice look for a cat that is 3-4 years old from a private owner full time liveaboard. They sorted everything out and things will work. 2nd go smaller 40ft cat is enough and beam small enough that most mono haul out yards can still haul you too. Running cost are smaller, they go exponentially up. Money in the bank means piece of mind...
Get aboard asap and enjoy and not trying to build the perfect boat which you will find out after 2 years living abroad is not perfect at all

Its not the perfect boat that makes it awesome and enjoyable, its being out and travel wherever you want, freedom to take your home anywhere you like.
Your top 10 must have, mine and all I met changed during 2nd year. One out ofTop 10 stayed..

Take till 2024 the time to get min 8 weeks on your top 3 cats you want to buy and check if it is really what you want to get or are there noGos like the life raft locker on Leopard 38. Every boat is a compromise but you only find out if you are on it long time. There is enough you can customize or refit to your liking to make it yours anyhow.
Saw too many of these "perfect boat approaches" and everyone I talked who have done that said never again and it was much more expensive then getting a good one to start right away...

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Dirk01

CaptainRivet (funny name BTW),
maybe you've overseen that I've to care for my two kids. One of them will need a lot more care over the next few years than you can imagine (and I don't intend to go into the details publicly). And maybe you've overseen that there is no mother who cares. It's my life of a loving father. I'm pretty sure that everybody else with a heart at the right place would do the same. My kids are and will ever be the center of my life. This is not an excuse!

Maybe your 20% is is my 60% I intend to live on. I know from other posts, that 3 k€ per month guarantees a nice living (starting with a new boat).

To introduce my background just a little bit:
I learnt how to sail during my study in the mid 80s, than changed to airplane (PPL A + B + C) for 15 years, than go back sailing and I've now something like 10k nm in my wake.

However, lets dive ito the facts of outfitting.
The internal outfitting takes, according to your post, 5 people for two years fulltime plus myself. So, 6 people at 8 hrs per day and 5 days a week and 40 weeks a year. This is nearly 40.000 working hrs. The Cruise Marine ship yard needs rougly 3 month for that work. Hence, there have to be 80 people at the same time on the boat. Or, if they are double as fast as I and my helping hands are, 40 people. The costs at a 10 €/hr rate (and that is, even in Vietnam, really cheap for a company with its overhead and taxes they've to pay). So, the working costs for the outfitting would be roughly 200 k€. Without the material costs which I estimate to another quarter mio. € or a bit more. So the costs for the entire hull with all hatches, windows, rudders and steering and working costs are at least only 1 € (roughly) due to the selling price of Max Cruise Marine.
Do you believe, that MJ-Sailing really plan to build their baby for the next 15 years or so (they build it out of the box with four hands for 95% of the time)? Surely not!

Here is my question into the CF to anybody who did a similar job, but under the following circumstances:
The entire hull is "watertight" and can be steered (so I can sail her through the canals to the shipyard nearby my living spot with two temporarily installed outboard motors). All interiors like bed frames, cabinets, doors, shelves, pantry, benches, the floors and so on are laser-cut and ready for mounting. I'm a mechanic (German apprenticeship) and a studied engineer with a strong electrical background. I've two years of advance planning for finding the right products to install and to prepare what can be prepared (roughly 10-15 hrs per week). The outfitting will be done on a shipyard where I can get help whenever four hands are needed.

How long do you estimate does it might take to outfit the yacht at fulltime? Or, the other way round, is my estimation of two years really totally wrong?

I would very much like to receive comprehensible answers. And I know in the meanwhile, that the CF has an incredible number of outspoken experts. Thank you in advance for that.

Cheers
Dirk

Hi Dirk,
No offense. Family is important and just take them with and problem solved

I didn't say it takes 5 people 2 years fulltime, just asked if you have them. 40000h is too much but 10000 could in worst case actually happen.Also labour is most cost during outfitting, material is 50% of labour cost means 250k labour and 125k materials. Why because in the quanity they purchase they have huge discounts.
You do it the first time, things go not like planed, the yard workers have no time when you need extra pair of hands.... So many things go wrong if you just rely on yourself. And it will end up much more expensive.
And a bew boat does not be the best place to start, it has more stuff that does not work then you imagine. Nothing is tested, things are different then planed...

My advice look for a cat that is 3-4 years old from a private owner full time liveaboard. They sorted everything out and things will work. 2nd go smaller 40ft cat is enough and beam small enough that most mono haul out yards can still haul you too. Running cost are smaller, they go exponentially up. Money in the bank means piece of mind...
Get aboard asap and enjoy and not trying to build the perfect boat which you will find out after 2 years living abroad is not perfect at all

Its not the perfect boat that makes it awesome and enjoyable, its being out and travel wherever you want, freedom to take your home anywhere you like.
Your top 10 must have, mine and all I met changed during 2nd year. One out ofTop 10 stayed..

Take till 2024 the time to get min 8 weeks on your top 3 cats you want to buy and check if it is really what you want to get or are there noGos like the life raft locker on Leopard 38. Every boat is a compromise but you only find out if you are on it long time. There is enough you can customize or refit to your liking to make it yours anyhow.
Saw too many of these "perfect boat approaches" and everyone I talked who have done that said never again and it was much more expensive then getting a good one to start right away...

[Dirk01]

Originally Posted by rabbi

BTW: How many people going with you?

We are sailing as a couple most of the times (how many others do as well). But some times with family & friends. And maybe for the long passages with two external crew. It depends on time and location.

[more]

Originally Posted by Dirk01

Hi folks,
I'm considering a Lagoon 42 as my new home for living abroad and sailing the world (buying a used one owners version 2023 / 2024). But, considering a used boat with unknown pre-life, my biggest concerns are about sustainability. Balsa is known as much more critical than closed foam regarding leaks through thru hulls, hatches or anything else.
Here is my question: Which core uses Lagoon for the new L42 (above waterline)? And, do they use solid GPR below waterline?
Next question: Are there any other suggestions for me in a range between 40 to 46 ft?
My budget: 350 k€ plus up to 80 k€ for refits & upgrades.

Cheers
Dirk

Nautitech, Balance , Outremer catamaran use foam core.

i pick Nautitech because Balance, Outremer is outside my pocket.

[Dirk01]

@CaptainRivet
There are a lot of statements. I try to sort out the most important:
Go sailing is better than working -> agreed.
Labor is doable but can exceed up to 10k hrs. -> partly agreed. Something inbetween might be the outcome (6k hrs?). Makes it a 3 years job. However, one year more is acceptable for me (keeping in mind, that there will be definitely no chance to sail away earlier than beginning 2026. This date is not negotiabely).
Material costs may be much higher due to discount I don't get -> agreed and good advice! Probably the most important one! No money, no boat, no sailing - quite easy. So I've to sort out very well what should be left in the hands of Cruise Marine.
There are many 100% boats still under construction -> agreed. For me the 80% are the new 100%. It's not possible to get the 100%, I'm aware of that and I can easily live with that.
Starting with completely new stuff might fail -> agreed. 6-8 month in EU waters are planned already. That might correct 80% of the failures (so again, it's 100% for me).
Going smaller -> partly agreed. 40ft is the absolute lower end for me. 42-44ft would be the optimum, 46-48ft only if it's a bargain. (I already sailed catamarans from 38ft up to 50ft for more than a day cruise and in very different wheathers. However, every boat sails different. I.e. the 38ft was better than the 40ft, but the 42ft has beaten them by far. The 50ft i.e. was dramatically pounding in steep waves, regardless which direction we sailed (downwind excluded - we'd to deliver at a certain time).

I'm just setting up the project. I'm collecting infos since years and many of the important parts are clear now, a lot of still might change, the rest will decided, when I need it. I still have 2 years for planning. As a project engineer I know that this is sufficient.

"Its not the perfect boat that makes it awesome and enjoyable, its being out and travel wherever you want, freedom to take your home anywhere you like." -> totally agreed!!! This is the other side I'm thinking about permanently. On the other hand I don't want to repair my boat constantly in the most beautiful places of the world. But my biggest concerns are not to know, what I really buy (and a surveyor also won't find everything). The L440 hurricane damaged boat bulkhead desaster made me very insecure. Do I burn my money? Do I've to quit sailing the world because my boat is falling apart?
As Tupaia said - "Re"fitting might be more time consuming (maybe due to the crap you've to tear out and you've to repair first before you can fit the new things in?).
Top 10 list -> agreed. Bulk heads falling apart are not on the list :-)

I built a new house (and I'm not a housebuilder!) from the scratch and said - never again! Then I refitted the next one - and said again, never again. Now I'm happy with them. Both are of high quality. The one I rented earns a lot of money, the one we're living in is now how we like it. Might be after the boat built or the refit the same saying?

This discussion gave me a lot of help. Next year I'll fly down to Vietnam to meet Max Cruise Marine. At the latest after that I will (or better have to) make a final decision.

Time and money are crucial (as long as we stay healthy - and that's what I'm assuming at this point).

Thx you for your review. There is no such thing as a bad review - it only gives hints for opportunities.

Cheers
Dirk

[Dirk01]

Originally Posted by more

Nautitech, Balance , Outremer catamaran use foam core.

i pick Nautitech because Balance, Outremer is outside my pocket.

Outremer is outside my pocket too (even I sailed the 5X and it was fantastic. One time we reached more speed than true wind!).
Nautitec, as mentioned, with steering at the stern, is not what my CEO would like. Esp. in rough weather & wind. And, TBH, I agree with her. Maybe there's one with a helm station covered from winds and safe in the alone nightwatch?
Balance 442 (very nice and fitting), Seawind 1260 and Max 42SC (or as a 44SC if built by Max Cruise itself (2ft extension at the stern)) are more or less in the same range and would fit the 80% boat (which is the new 100% :-) ). The Seawind 1360 is a dream, but maybe too expensive.
Due to the exploding house prices, my upper (hard!) limit raised to 550 k€. Maybe that widens my opportunities...

Would appreciate any more comments about my suggestions.

Thx in advance, folks.

Cheers
Dirk

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Dirk01

Outremer is outside my pocket too (even I sailed the 5X and it was fantastic. One time we reached more speed than true wind!).
Nautitec, as mentioned, with steering at the stern, is not what my CEO would like. Esp. in rough weather & wind. And, TBH, I agree with her. Maybe there's one with a helm station covered from winds and safe in the alone nightwatch?
Balance 442 (very nice and fitting), Seawind 1260 and Max 42SC (or as a 44SC if built by Max Cruise itself (2ft extension at the stern)) are more or less in the same range and would fit the 80% boat (which is the new 100% :-) ). The Seawind 1360 is a dream, but maybe too expensive.
Due to the exploding house prices, my upper (hard!) limit raised to 550 k€. Maybe that widens my opportunities...

Would appreciate any more comments about my suggestions.

Thx in advance, folks.

Cheers
Dirk

From that list seawlnd 1260 definitely without a 2nd thinking. Well know and hipg
quality build and very good resale value, just in case you need too.

If you think a new boat keeps you away from repairing your cat in the most beautiful places in the world then you are wrong, you will exactly do that..first it will always happen but the biggest chances that these are minor stuff is a 2-4years old cat privatly owned and 100%liveaboard. They sorted most out
Stuff is still newish and a lox refits are done and tested to work. Best is they will maybe get 20% of the refit money invested, most cat for the money and the smallest amount of work for you, three bunnies at the same time