ITA 14.99

[catmancan2]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

The class of Vinylester resins is a big group with widely varying chemistries. Some are more like polyesters, some are higher solids and more like epoxies. Not surprisingly, the cheaper ones are more like polyesters with high VOCs, and thus possibly more prone to osmosis.

But the good ones that are formulated for marine exterior use are highly resistant to absorbing water as are epoxies, so it makes no difference.

VE's can also have positive characteristics for VIP with less exotherm, lower viscosity, more flexible geltimes etc. so are a good choice for modern boat building techniques.

I think everyone is agreed polyesters are only used as the least cost option, just to save money and some production time. But as Fountaine Pajot owners, even late model FP's, have learned to their dismay, osmosis issues are still a possibility for the unwary, even with the advances in resin chemistries.

Maybe a resin chemist can join the discussion and educate us? I would like to know why some boats still get osmosis even when an underwater barrier coat of epoxy is used, for instance.

BigBeakie I haven't mixed chemicals since my old hippie days, but let me see if I can add some info regarding the resin topic. Orthophthalic, Isophthalic, and Vinyl ester are hybrids of polyester resin. And within each of these resins are different variants.

Of these hybrids I think vinyl ester and epoxy vinyl ester are the best from the polyester group for preventing osmotic blistering a well as structural and bonding strength. I don't know about epoxy vinyl ester but normally vinyl ester resin does not bond well with carbon and aramid fibers. It's one reason why carbon builders use epoxy resin.

Some builders using polyester resin will use an epoxy resin or ISO-NPG top coat (barrier coat) which is an Isophthalic based resin. But in my view there is no better resin than epoxy for osmotic protection and is 3x times stronger than the vinyl ester resins. The downside of epoxy is its higher material cost and length of time and materials for post-curing.

Why some boats with epoxy barrier coats still develop blisters? My guess would be it's possibly a human factor during the mixing, preparation, or application? Taking a plug from the affected area to send to a lab might provide a good answer.

[SVNeko]

Sorry, didn't meant to hijack the thread. Its got good info on the ITA. Lets keep it to that.

[Catmandu]

No worries, not too much of a hijack as the question of resin is fundamental to the build/value of the boat. It the ITA folks can produce an all-epoxy boat and keep the price competitive then hat by itself is a huge differentiator and would get me to sign up.

The builder will use north of 500 gallons of resin and epoxy is 3-5x the cost of polyester so back of the envelope 500 gallons x $300/gallon for epoxy means that there is going to be $100,000+ more in materials and the labor of post curing.

Worth every penny...

[catmancan2]

Originally Posted by SVNeko

Sorry, didn't meant to hijack the thread. Its got good info on the ITA. Lets keep it to that.

Thanks Neko and no worries. But if I can contribute useful general info to the forum I'm happy to. It's all about increasing our knowledge. By the way I made many visits to Sud Composites back in 2000 when they were building the Catana 401 model. They were a damn good yard.

[catmancan2]

Originally Posted by CbroTheDude

I wonder where this catamaran will be situated among its competition in terms of weight. The hybrid system seems like a heavy option to begin with, and the luxury expected inside will add its fair amount of materials. I say this as comparison have been maid with Outremer which keep spartian interiors to achieve low weights without going full carbon. On the other side, the gunboat 68 produced in the same place will have different fitting options with modular/removable interior components fore race days. Even though I know this is not in the same league by any mean (2 hulls per year for the 68, doubling Outremer's turn over) I wonder if such option, or if other measures have been taken for performance.

Sincerely,
The Dude

Hey Dude, In the past 3 to 5 years there has been a swell of sailors willing to forgo some interior volume for sailing pleasure (sport of sailing), shorter transit times, and better seakeeping abilities.

So the ITA target market is in fact the Balance 526, Catana 47/53, HH 48, Seawind 1600, Swiss 48 and the current big dog of our market the Outremer 51. And let me not forget to mention a number of great Aussie builders.

The target lightship displacement of the ITA 14.99 is 10.5t including basic standard equipment, Dacron mainsail/solent, primary ground tackle, less liquids, and a yacht finished interior using wood veneers cored with balsa. The only concession ITA has made regarding weight is using safety glass for all hull, salon, and cockpit sliding door windows.

To maintain light to medium air performance requires the selection of material used in construction, the construction process itself, and of course hull shape. As far as hull shape, the 14.99 (LWL) has a fine entry gradually broadening to a flat hull bottom for payload and planning capability.

We'll see how well we do once Nr.1 is sailing.

[catmancan2]

Originally Posted by Catmandu

From what I have seen the the ITA steering is not located as far back or outboard as the classic Catanas and IMO is better placed. It will provide good sight lines to the opposite fwd bow, allow you to see the shape of the sails while sailing and better interact with people on the rear deck. The steering should be precise and give some feedback and might make sailing the boat a lot of fun. I like the ITA steering placement better than wheels that are mounted on the rear bulkhead (Outremer) as this inhibits salon visibility to the rear (no window) and you are just as exposed and a little more removed from people hanging out on the rear deck but you can see all four corners. Steering placement on cats is one of those "religious" topics and potentially contentious.

The weight of the ITA is projected to be roughly the same as the Outremer/Balance 52 about -10T-10.5T and they should perform similarly with similar sized rig, the Balance having a slight advantage with a little more waterline length.

The ITA and Balance are epoxy boats and this is a huge advantage over Outremer or (god forbid) a polyester boat and IMHO worth the extra cost for longevity reasons.

The key question will be in the add-ons (generator/AC/Watermakers ... etc) and how the hull shape can carry a cruising load. Catanas were not the fastest but once you put a cruising load on the boat they became really fast as their performance did not drop off as much as other performance cruising cats. The original Outremer 49's were extended 2' in the transoms to help with load carrying and became the current O-51. The Gunboat 55 is now a Gunboat 57 ... this is not uncommon. The real question is how does the boat sail when it is loaded up with fuel, food, rum and lots of friends and family.

I hope to will find out more later this year when they launch. It appears to be a very well thought out design ... let's see how they execute.

Hi Catmandu: According to Balance 526 specs the LOA is 52.5 ft, LWL is 47.31 ft, Hull Beam is 7.16 ft (measurement location not given).

According to ITA 14.99 specs the LOA is 49.17 ft, LWL is 49.17 ft, Hull Beam @ waterline is 4.92 ft.

I'm assuming the Balance LOA includes its bowsprit and the ITA LOA does include its bowsprit.

[meatservo]

Really getting stoked about this boat! But like Tom Petty said, "The waiting is the hardest part."





meatservo

[Catmandu]

We are in a wonderful age, a resurgence of performance cat designs being brought to the market - outremer, ITA, HH, Balance, Harvey Yachts, no to mention Gunboat which will be back. Even with all that I'm sure I missed a few. It's a great time to be alive if you love good sailing cats.

The ITA looks to be a great design and worth waiting for.

[iliohale]

Hey all, quick update. The ITA designer has released the polars for the boat and here are some key take aways:

1. First time I have ever seen a builder release the light displacement (10T), half displacement (12.5T) and full displacement (14.5T) polars.
2. If the actual performance equals even 60% of these the boat will have fantastic performance.
3. The performance deltas between the light displacement and full displacement are surprising low. ITA talks about how they have enabled the ability to carry 4.5T above light ship without significant impact to the performance so I would encourage you to take a look at the overall hull form.

Suggest you contact the US Dealer for the boat, Navigator Yacht Sales, to request a copy of these polars.

Gary

[iliohale]

ITA posted an update on the mold construction on FB yesterday. Here are some photos of the hull mold:



Side view of the hull mold bow facing to the left



Photo looking aft from the port bow, note the entire foredeck is part of the mold and will be laid up as a single structure with the hull.

The first hull should be under construction in early September.

Gary

[Catmandu]

Can anyone confirm that these ITA boats will be full epoxy builds?

[iliohale]

Originally Posted by Catmandu

Can anyone confirm that these ITA boats will be full epoxy builds?

Yes, that is my understanding.

Gary

[Heath68]

Does anyone know the reason why designers slant the hill to the back instead of having a short level area as is seen on some cats like the Nautitech. That short lower level makes side entry much easier but I don't know if there's a cost in performance.

[catmancan2]

Originally Posted by Catmandu

Can anyone confirm that these ITA boats will be full epoxy builds?

Yes, epoxy resin infusion is used for the entire shell, bulkheads, plus additional components such as daggerboard casings and daggerboards. Post curing using specific heat temperature and time frame is done for increased strength.

The hull molds are complete and lamination of Nr.1 starts the last week of August and the deck tooling is well along to be finished.

[iliohale]

Originally Posted by Heath68

Does anyone know the reason why designers slant the hill to the back instead of having a short level area as is seen on some cats like the Nautitech. That short lower level makes side entry much easier but I don't know if there's a cost in performance.

Hi Heath,

Not sure I fully understand your question. Are you talking about the scoops? In the case of the Nautitech Open 46, the bottom step on the scoop does extend aft slightly beyond the out board hull which in some cases would make it easier to board from a dock when side tied. From a dinghy, having the in board bottom step clear of the hull is very nice and most designers now do this. It allows you to bring the dingy bow under the bridge deck and easy exit and board the dinghy. In the case of the ITA design, the decision not to extent the bottom step aft of the out board hull is likely rooted in things like maintaining interior volume in a given length and pure choice of lines.

Gary