ISARA 50 - Performance Under Sail?

[bryguy67]

Originally Posted by scarlet

Bry.... did you get they hybrid version? I know I have mixed feelings on the Isara.. but I am very excited to about the hybrid engines... Would you hurry up and get that thing built already!!!!!!

That's funny! Some days I wish it was done too. Thankfully I have so much to do between now and then (daughter getting married, selling a business, etc).
So, yes...ours is the hybrid version with 55hp Yanmars paired with E-motors and will be all electric (no propane) with a 48 volt system vs 12, 1000+ watts of solar and no separate diesel generator (2 E-motors are generators when the Yanmars are on or while sailing-hydrogenerating). I’ll be putting together another electric dinghy with it’s own solar charging system (never had to plug in the last one). So no gasoline on board either. That means if something is blowing up on our boat it’s most likely because I’ve pissed off my wife

Hey, I completely understand the hesitation of buying from a newer boat company. Believe me, we struggled with the same thing. But somebody had to buy the first few Pontiacs in the late 1920’s, right? 82 years later it probably seemed “safe” to buy a 2010 Pontiac, then GM stopped making them (and the parts). So you just never know. Could get hit by a bus today…life is short. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t leave the house. Even those who bought Delorians got their dream car even though the company didn’t survive very long. Our decision to buy an Isara was made after years of research. In 2012 when we set foot on the Isara 50 and tore it apart (not just looking at the pretty stuff) we had dinner that night with 3 key people from Isara including the owner. My wife and I are both in business and we are good at sizing up people. They were not pushy or sly; just passionate about building a quality boat and making them as beautiful and luxurious as possible. We took 8 more months beyond that to research and make a decision. We traveled the entire East Coast of the U.S. looking at used cats too. 2-4 year old non-charter versions from the big production companies consistently disappointed us with pock marks and rust on exterior and interior parts (including faucets, light fixtures, delaminated mirrors, etc). Cheap parts that looked great when they were new now were in need of replacement. See, our previous catamaran was a PDQ (company now calls it Antares) and they, like Isara, built boats with high quality parts. We bought her when she was 10 years old and sold her when she was 14. The original parts looked good as new when we sold her. Now I understand from many years of experience that boats need repairs, but we decided that it made more sense to pay more for a boat that was built with good parts than to buy one for less money, then replace the parts with good quality ones over time. If we did that, at resale time the boat would be better than new, yet would still have the production boat name brand; lower resale value. So the risk we are taking may be higher because it’s a new company and a new design, but overall this decision feels best when all categories are considered. Sure, could have bought a Privilege or Antares; great boats. But I wanted a modern design with good use of space and a flybridge helm. Antares is a very dated design and feels so small in comparison to today’s designs. A decade ago it was a fine design, but things have changed (and for the better). Privilege has those rounded windows in the salon that create a solar Mecca that they fight with ugly curtains. The new Priv 515 is nice but waaay above our budget.
I’m just gonna say it: I don’t like the Isara 50 stairs to the flybridge. Dang they are pretty, but my wife and I are not slip lizards…we SAIL and those stairs don’t look safe to me in a seaway with heavy weather. It’s an art to balance a flybridge helm that has an interior stairway that also leads to the deck, a boom that is high enough not to wack the heads of those at the helm, yet low enough to access it, and the ability to communicate with the helmsman and hand them a sandwich from the cockpit-without having to go up the stairs. It’s an art form that some companies have mastered while others are still tweaking. Look at the Leopard 4600, Lagoon 450, and FP Helia. Lagoon’s boom is crazy high, better duck on the Helia’s if you are in the port helm area…and Leopards 4600 is juuuuust right. They have a hard top over the helm that can be completely closed in with isinglass for bad weather. We’ve ordered our Isara with the same set up which also gives one more place for solar. Helmsman is safe with the boom just above the hard top, and access to the boom can be had by standing on that same hardtop; genious.
Holy smokes I’m chatty today. Sorry for the long post. ~Bryan

[downunder]

Bryguy67,

Have you seen what Torguedo Deep Blue is doing with hybrid systems. a totally intregrated electrical system.

Guess we will see a lot more of this in the future.

Deep Blue Hybrid, hybrid propulsion system, sailing catamarans

http://www.torqeedo.com/images/pdf/d...brid_Flyer.pdf

Torqeedo Deep Blue, electric outboard, Boats using large electric motors

[Blue Skye]

So Moonwave got Torqueedo involved in their design? Or was Torqueedo the provider from the start? I've known about that system for a while but never heard Torqueedo attached to it. Either way, looking forward to silent propulsion, today, tomorrow or 20 yrs from now...

[bryguy67]

The biggest difference between the system you posted and ours is that there's is a "series" hybrid (think Chevy Volt) where ours is a "parellel" hybrid (think Toyota Prius). Both systems are functional in boats, just as they are in cars; it's just about choices. Here are the main differences:

There's uses LARGE electric motors and a large diesel generator (whether it's Torqeedo's version or not). If something goes awry with either the E-motors or the generator, then sailing is their last option (with which they can hydrogenerate more power with proper sailing speeds). There is no engine that can directly power the prop.

Ours uses SMALL electric motors that are installed parellel with typical twin 55hp Yanmars. No diesel generator needed; E-motors act as generators when motoring or they hydorgenerate when sailing. If something goes awry with our E-motors, we still have 2 diesel engines for propulsion plus sails (and vice versa). Because either the engines or the e-motors can power the prop, we have 4 propulsion methods that would have to go bad before sailing is our last option. Of course sailing is our first preference

The other big difference is sail drive vs. shaft drive. Our particular supplier (warranted by Yanmar) allows the use of either drive system (we chose shaft drive). With Series hybrids you could also use both, although I see the Torqeedo system is using a complicated 360 degree sail drive. That dude had some great advantages especially for docking and prop choices, but it's complications would concern me for the long run. I prefer the KISS system. Besides, docking a cat with twin engines is already pretty slick. That system reminds me of the cars that parellel park themselves...I guess I'm old school and like the challenge and the feeling that comes with the accomplishment.

[downunder]

The Torquedo system has both sail drive and shaft drive available using well proven durable electric motors. Their website takes some navigating.

Torqeedo Deep Blue, electric outboard, Boats using large electric motors

I am not advocating the system rather saying there is a bit happening in this area at present.

[aclmck]

Now quite a few "series" electrical systems, and they will get even better with better batteries and charging systems but unfortunately they still have a problem with one or two small issues to bring the entire system down.for example lagoon 420 hybrid (many now changed to Diesel motors) these systems usually,but not always have motors that don't provide enough thrust when required on bars etc

the full swivel sail drive seems a good idea on a mono, but not really required on a cat.

the parallel system from yanmar gives many options before failure would even require docking for repair.

[BigBeakie]

Hi aclmck,

"but unfortunately they still have a problem with one or two small issues to bring the entire system down.for example lagoon 420 hybrid (many now changed to Diesel motors) these systems usually,but not always have motors that don't provide enough thrust when required on bars etc"

The thing with electric propulsion is, you do need to pay attention to good design principles and quality components. You make it sound like there are some insurmountable issues that prevent electric being a viable option. Can I ask what specifically those issues are, in the current systems such as Torqeedo?
I think you will find that things have moved on since Lagoon stuffed up putting hybrids in models a few years ago. The story of how Lagoon failed in that attempt at electric is interesting, but for another time. It certainly had the effect of giving diesel-electric hybrid a bad reputation, and lots of pundits use it as justification that electric is not "quite there yet". But that is out of date thinking.
But you are right that motor size is important and it is often under spec'd. Mainly because there have not been available efficient electric motors of big enough capacity. That also has changed. Torqeedo shaft drive can be up to 80HP, so 160HP (and 98% efficient) should be enough thrust for most cats.

And the swivel saildrive is mostly for regeneration purpose, I see the added sideways crab walking ability for docking as a bonus, and maybe handy in high wind/tight berth situations.

[bryguy67]

Originally Posted by aclmck

Now quite a few "series" electrical systems, and they will get even better with better batteries and charging systems but unfortunately they still have a problem with one or two small issues to bring the entire system down.for example lagoon 420 hybrid (many now changed to Diesel motors) these systems usually,but not always have motors that don't provide enough thrust when required on bars etc

the full swivel sail drive seems a good idea on a mono, but not really required on a cat.

the parallel system from yanmar gives many options before failure would even require docking for repair.

I'll admit, I've been drinking a bit before I read your post...but I'm wondering if you may have been doing the same before you wrote it? I'm just playin'...but I must say I agree that early trials that failed were good education for all hybrid builders. I imagine that auto builders learned a few things and have made some improvements since the Model A. Meanwhile, this popcorn is makin' me thirsty!

[EllesBelles]

Bry, When do you splash because so many of us are eager to hear how you like the Isara 45 and the revolutionary hybrid-Yanmar set up?
Also, do you have any photos from the boat's construction you can share? At the Miami boat show, the only sneak peek on the 45 from the builder were drawings, and they weren't even finished yet. We are waiting eagerly to see how your boat shapes up, and are sending you the very best good wishes in your build.

[bryguy67]

Originally Posted by EllesBelles

Bry, When do you splash because so many of us are eager to hear how you like the Isara 45 and the revolutionary hybrid-Yanmar set up?
Also, do you have any photos from the boat's construction you can share? At the Miami boat show, the only sneak peek on the 45 from the builder were drawings, and they weren't even finished yet. We are waiting eagerly to see how your boat shapes up, and are sending you the very best good wishes in your build.

Wow, what a nice post...thanks! You've probably seen similar drawings to the ones I've seen. No photos yet as they are still tooling for the build. I'll certainly post drawings and pics as I'm allowed. The latest drawings I've received are structural in nature and aren't for sharing; prettier ones coming soon. I'm hoping for a Fall splash but that's pretty optimistic at this point. I'll have a blog and want to share my experience with how much diesel we use for generating electricity. The ultimate goal is to use very little fuel of course, but only real life experience will tell how much. I'm very curious to see how it works out myself.

[EllesBelles]

Let us know as soon as you launch your blog. That will be a great way for us to follow construction of your 45 Isara, and when you splash, you can video that and it will become our virtual sea trial.
We are all so eager to see how the hybrid engine performs. As I understand it, it's a parallel system, so you have the regular Yanmar diesels, and then you'll have a second motor that's hybrid alongside. I'm very curious to know how the performance turns out to be for the added weight of having four engines instead of two.

[bryguy67]

Will do~ I've done the rough math on the weight difference between having the hybrid system with no diesel generator vs a conventional system. It's actually about the same. And the small electric motors aren't the majority of the weight as much as the super sized battery bank is.

[Heath68]

Originally Posted by EllesBelles

Let us know as soon as you launch your blog. That will be a great way for us to follow construction of your 45 Isara, and when you splash, you can video that and it will become our virtual sea trial.
We are all so eager to see how the hybrid engine performs. As I understand it, it's a parallel system, so you have the regular Yanmar diesels, and then you'll have a second motor that's hybrid alongside. I'm very curious to know how the performance turns out to be for the added weight of having four engines instead of two.

Have you made your mind up yet EllesBelles with regards to a replacement for your 44i? If so did the Isara feature on the shortlist (sorry not trying to rob the thread)

I am considering the Isara 50 or 45 so am still interested in this thread as I'd like to know about performance. Great looking boat.

[EllesBelles]

Originally Posted by Heath68

Have you made your mind up yet EllesBelles with regards to a replacement for your 44i? If so did the Isara feature on the shortlist (sorry not trying to rob the thread)

I am considering the Isara 50 or 45 so am still interested in this thread as I'd like to know about performance. Great looking boat.

Hi Heath68,
We considered the Isara back before we bought our Antares 44i. We ended up chosing the Antares for a myriad of reasons and are even happier with the boat now that we've put 5000 miles on it over the last eight months than when we were weighing options of buying different cats. We are living aboard and circumnavigating, and the longer we sail, and the more boats we experience, the more appreciative we are of the Antares for design, comfort, ease for a couple to sail, safety, quality of construction, etc.
Not to knock the Isara (which we agree are beautiful-looking boats!) - we truly hope they get their fabrication going more smoothly and are a big success with this new model of engine on smaller cruising cats - but we didn't want to buy a new, unproven design, and the boat's layout seemed to us to be better for life in a marina than liveaboard going around the world, as we wanted.
We were intrigued by the hybrid engine idea, but to go around the world, it's good to have high quality, basic 40hp volvo penta engines. We take great care of ours, and they're taking great care of us.
We have a Kohler generator that also is extremely reliable. For us, reliability and sturdiness are at the top of our list for these important machines on the boat.

Kind regards, Ellen

[category4jay]

Originally Posted by EllesBelles

Here's the information I've been able to glean on the Isara. It's a very beautiful boat. The 50 probably will be very popular in the charter market if it sails well. Even if it sails well, it may not work as well for liveaboards due to lack of storage and ventilation, or water sailing">blue water sailing until it's better set up for rugged long-distance cruising. For example, walking around the 50 at dock was one thing, but there were no handholds at all along the side passages - a MOB waiting to happen.
We've reviewed what plans we can see and we toured the 50' boat at the boat show. Ventilation in the saloon may be limited with so little openable windows/hatches. That's fine if you want to keep the AC running all the time, as they were doing at the show, but that's not practical for liveaboard/blue water sailing.
The galley looks pretty, but are the fridge/freezer (which are front-loading) practical or sufficient?
The berths were suprisingly low in the cabins so very little storage underneath, and no views of anything but sky thru the windows. The beds were less comfortable than the Outremer and less well set up in the cabins.
There seemed to be a lot of wasted space throughout the Isara 50 - large, but not well-utilized space, i.e. not maximizing storage as a sailboat should.
I've been able to find absolutely no one who has sailed the Isara so far. Even the sailor who brought her down from Ft Lauderdale to Miami in February said they motored (and given that the mast wasn't even on the boat, it was just a big motorboat at that point).
Every time the boat goes to a boat show, it's freightered in. Even the Royal Cape Catamaran was sailed to Miami from So.Africa. But not the Isara.
Sales: The first 50 was in Annapolis last year as a straight diesel Yanmar. The second hull was in Miami. Supposedly hull #1 sold, but where is it? Hull #2, also not the hybrid version, was supposedly being commissioned for a Texan who would be picking it up in Florida after the boat show. I do hope we get some videos or other evidence of how she handles under sail.
Why did J.J.Coste take the Isara off his website last year - Design Catamaran-Yachts Design-Luxury catamaran-Coste Design-Naval architecture-Boat builder design Is this an indication that he no longer is proud of the design enough to keep his name attached to it?
At least one brave couple have ordered a 45. I hope their courage is rewarded because the designs of the aft, the davits, etc. are not even finalized.
The Isara could be the breaking edge of the best in new catamaran designs, or it could be a failure. We are shopping for a 45-50' cat, which is why we considered this attractive looking boat. In the end, we felt that reliability, proven performance, function and form over looks were better factors on which to base our decision. I do hope Isara succeeds...it's just a big unknown at this point.

Very Nice analysis. Great points. Question for you. You say you are shopping for a 45 to 50 cat. You're profile shows you sailing an Antares 45i. So is the Antares the cat you picked or are you looking for a different cat than the Antares?