Is World Cruising Safe on a Cat?

[tongaboys]

Originally Posted by imagine2frolic

tongaboys,
I was once described as having exuberant humor in my post....possibly it's true? Anyway my point of the O'vive video was to show the safety that comes with flat sailing......i2f

i2f, we are on the same page or I have never misinterpreted you, maybe it's because I come from OZ the Land Downunder ...tongaboys

[catty]

Originally Posted by sneuman

Ok, I'll bite. Tropic Cat, what percentage of the time do you do 20 knots?

Sneuman, I may be able to help here with your question. This was discussed at length a while back ( I'm not sure if it was on this forum).

From Ovive's log it appears as though in strong 20 to 30 knot following trades the vessels battled to average 8 knots for the 24 hour period when this video was taken.

Does this help?

[Factor]

Originally Posted by sneuman

Ok, I'll bite. Tropic Cat, what percentage of the time do you do 20 knots?

Not much I am sure, but thats not his point surely - surely his point is that at speed the boat is still safe?

[Tropic Cat]

Originally Posted by Factor

Not much I am sure, but thats not his point surely - surely his point is that at speed the boat is still safe?

Gosh, never. That wasn't my point at all. Who said I sail at 20 knots? Catty, you're correct, the rooster tails were discussed a while back on another forum concerning catamaran hull design.

I don't mean to sound too causal about sailing fast when the wind is up. I remember one day, sailing with my 155 genny in 25 knot winds. The loading on my rig was right on the edge as I had too much sail up for conditions. (remember, Cats don't heel and can't unload the rig). Eventually, I got into trouble as the lower bearing froze on my furler. It was a very exciting few minutes to get that genny under control. But oh what a ride we had that afternoon.

As an aside, that bearing was in every bearing house's catalog but no one had sold one in 25 years. I had to go to the British furler company (Rotostay) to get the replacement. That $6.00 bearing cost $125.00 delivered and $400.00 installed.

[Even Keel]

Originally Posted by imagine2frolic

Somewhere is a video of O'VIVE doing nearly 20 knots while kids lounge about reading. One kid actually watching the helm. I can't seem to find the video. The cat is a 50ft. St. Francis...Okay here it is. Tell me this is not safe, and comfortable. Let me see a cruising mono with this abilty & stability. What is not safe about this vessel?......i2f

YouTube - Ovive sailing fast in the South Pacific

Speed isn't the point. Security is. For cats, as for monohull, sea is the main stuff you've to deal with. Obviously, cats, as monohull, can tilt and there's no point to forget it. You just have to deal with.
The main protection for a cat is speed strategy and because of better wheather forecast it become easyer every day. The main problem is, once tilted, you loose autonomy. You're safer than in a tilted monohull but alone and no way to get back in route. On cats, unless you're doing coastal navs, you gotta have a smoother way of and a better global appreciation, you can't rely only on reflexes (is that good english ? ).

Cat's are'nt more dangerous, but some skippers (remember what happened in Cap Bear with a 55' Outremer).
Good monohulls never let you approach your own limits, cats do.

[Even Keel]

Originally Posted by imagine2frolic

I would think Eric is a bit off on his calculations. In the Queens Birthday scenario a 40ft. cat survived nearly 100ft. waves. That may not be the case for some cats, but even still that is probably 5 times the width?.....i2f

I understand I'm not very good in english so let me put some precisions.
Eric Lerouge is just telling that, for his very own calculations, the risk for a cat to tilt exists as soon as the waves are higher than the width of the boat. It does mean it's gonna happen for sure. As you can't assume for sure that a 5 times width wave'll never tilt your cat.
I just posted the Eric Lerouge thought because he's plenty involved in cats and very knowledgeable. He spent more than half of his life sailing and upgrading his designs. Today, his cruising cats are in the top 5 of the quickest and safest cats you can have. So I would imagine his statement would be nice to have and understand.

[Tropic Cat]

Originally Posted by Even Keel

The main problem is, once tilted, you loose autonomy. You're safer than in a tilted monohull but alone and no way to get back in route. On cats, unless you're doing coastal navs, you gotta have a smoother way of and a better global appreciation, you can't rely only on reflexes (is that good english ? ).

Cat's are'nt more dangerous, but some skippers (remember what happened in Cap Bear with a 55' Outremer).
Good monohulls never let you approach your own limits, cats do.

The only comment I'll make to the post above is that sailing any boat requires a skill set. With Catamarans, the number one rule we all follow is to reef early. Feedback at the helm from Catamarans is no where near as pronounced as it is with a monohull. Once this lesson is learned these boats are safer than equivalent sized monos (racing cats aside).

Now,having said that, you have to look closely at catamaran boat designs. The low performance Cats, (my Catalpa falls in this category) never turn turtle as they were designed with short rigs and hulls that have a lot of leeway. On the other end of the data set we have performance Cats with slick hull designs, tall rigs and dagger boards. These boats require more vigilance and a slightly higher skill set to keep them safe. But...my point is that they are very safe once you learn how to sail them.

Usually, there's one Cat a year that turns turtle and it makes for some very public photos. And usually it's that boat's captain that screwed up. If a mono sinks, of course there is no photo op now, is there? And that pretty much says it all.

[sneuman]

I can no longer find the thread (maybe someone else who's better at that than I am), but a few years back we discussed at length the "cats outrun bad weather" assertion and found it to be somewhat wanting.

While surely it happens on occasion, it seems rarely to be a viable storm tactic. No one (mono or multi) in a rather lengthy thread could give an example of outrunning a storm system offshore.

[Factor]

Its absolutely been done on a multi - but I suspect not on a cruising multi - the round the world solo racers on tris depend on sailing fast enough to stay with a system. As for outrunning a storm, as I said I doubt any cruising boat of any hull numbers will do that, but a quick cruising boat of any hull numbers will offer the opportunity to maybe get out of the worst of it, or find a cyclone hole in time etc.

What matters more I think is knowing the best way for your boat to survive in extreme conditions, Cruising Multis have a great record of lying to sea anchors, having said that I still think that heaving to works well for my boat. and running with a drouge, I think sea anchors are a little like lifeboats, a point of last resort - cause once that parachute is down, you aint getting it back in a hurry.

Again though - Plenty of cats have sat on them very comfortably.

[Tropic Cat]

Originally Posted by sneuman

....While surely it happens on occasion, it seems rarely to be a viable storm tactic. No one (mono or multi) in a rather lengthy thread could give an example of outrunning a storm system offshore.

You know, this is a far cry from "catamarans aren't safe" which started this entire exchange. I actually agree with this post. I now have to ask what exactly is the point you are trying to make?

That our boats are expensive toys? Yep, you'd be right... but then again so is yours..

[sneuman]

Originally Posted by Tropic Cat

You know, this is a far cry from "catamarans aren't safe" which started this entire exchange. I actually agree with this post. I now have to ask what exactly is the point you are trying to make?

That our boats are expensive toys? Yep, you'd be right... but then again so is yours..

Firstly, I don't believe I said even once that "cats are unsafe."

But, if one of the arguments is that they are safe because they can speed away from bad weather (an argument I have heard frequently over the years, and as recently as a few posts up on this thread), I say it doesn't appear to be the case.

[TaoJones]

For a multitude of very good reasons, all Forum moderation is conducted in private. For that reason, with the exception of the involved posters, no one knows what has been taking place behind the scenes because of this thread, and even those with whom we've communicated are unaware what anyone else has received via PM.

It was hoped that those posting to this thread would recognize that nothing useful was being put forward, and the thread would grind to an unspectacular end. Many of those involved are among the most experienced members of this Forum and know and understand that the "prime directive" here is Be Nice!

In most other threads, these same people communicate in a mature manner and, when they disagree with another member, do so in a not-disagreeable way. Why that breaks down in the mono/multi debate I can't fathom, but it always seems to.

It's sad, really, and a bit pathetic that people who are drawn together by a love of the life aquatic can become so polarized over such an inconsequential issue. We all have so much more in common that unites us that it is just silly to let one childish difference of opinion ruin everything else.

Bottom line: This thread is now closed.

TaoJones