Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by paulanthony

As soon as I saw the word Bollox I knew I would see boatman61 if I looked up.. and what did I see.. boatman61

I set the same qualification for both cat and mono. When asked for the qualification I entered boatman61 and the computer said no No NO!

I gave them both master yachtsman.

And.. a quick search on the central database would have shown you were not and had never been insured as such..
Is there such a thing as Master Yachtsman..

[Rapanui]

I am pretty certain that an auto-inflation masthead buoyancy device was available for a short while in Europe. Can imagine that there are few problems that need thinking about. If it inflates to late, you are inverted which is the most stable position for a cat, and your gas bag is unlikely to be of any use. Too soon, and the windage of your gas bag will probably be the final straw. While you can surely make a fixed float strong enough, securing a bag to prevent it being torn away by the forces would seem problematic.

There does seem to be very little recent collated information on the mechanisms of cat capsize. My guess is that for modern production cat cruisers, very few these days sail over due to too much sail as they are very much wider than previously (possible exception Gemini?), most bury a bow or two and pitchpole. But I do not know and that's the point. We need some analysis of recent capsizes in the same way as the Amateur Yacht Research Society did in the 1969.

[bnizette]

There used to be a youtube video of a 38 ft catamaran that was belly up being righted by a dingy with a 9hp motor.

They flipped it end over end. Took a rope from the centre of the bar on the front, threw between the hulls to the aft and then pulled aft to flip it up. The hoisted sails simply cut through the water.

Tried to find the video again but could not. Does seem feasible though.

[med]

Originally Posted by DotDun

The #1 risk I see in this topic is your confidence in your own abilities to operate a catamaran within it's design parameters in 50kts of wind at high latitudes without a way to recover from flipping it. My only suggestion is you don't attempt to do so. As been suggested in previous posts, it's not the boat, it's how one operates it.

To some extent it is a question of luck whether you get caught in wind of 50kts, 60kts or more.

[Canibul]

Tom Lack bet 10,000 pounds sterling that nobody could flip one of his catamarans or get a photo of one flying a hull. Nobody ever claimed it in 40 years. To answer your next question, so far the best we've done is maintain 8.5 knots for an hour at a time in 18-22 knots across the beam. We can motorsail in lighter winds and pretty much count on 7 knots with sails and one engine on, burning half a gallon per hour. By modern catamaran standards it's not a speedster. But then we didn't get into this to race people. We went for the Winnebago instead of the Corvette.

[monte]

Most of the Chris White quotes are taken from part of his advertising speel for his foil mast, twin furling genoa designs so not really applicable. Not that there's anything inherently wrong with those designs. A better source of relevant useful information would be his summary as to why one of his sloop rig design atlantics capsized in a squall, which basically put it down to too much sail up for the conditions and relying on autopilot when handsteering would be more appropriate.

[ZULU40]

The 1979 Fastnet Race occurring in admittedly freak weather conditions, out of 303 competitors 5 boats sunk, 100 suffered knock downs, 77 rolled, 24 were abandoned and 15 sailors drowned. Just 85 boats completed the course.

Why is this significant?
After 1979 RORC governing committee made many changes and recommendations with respect to ocean racing with requirements for crews and equipment, and righting moments of boats. Racing safety has improved as a result, but of course it will never be perfect. Also if your boat is earlier than 1979 manufacture, you have something to think about.

One of the first boats proven to be self righting was the Contessa 32, however. Still as it stands very few yachts can claim to be unsinkable. The claim I actually believe in is that made by Etap for their boats, but it seems a sadly lacking statistic. In pursuit of design theory progress as well as individual boat integrity some Brit magazines demonstrate a boats righting ability in calm seas.

I have never heard of a large cat that is self righting, that is not to say it would take considerable effort to knock a large cat over.But I think there would be a way of doing this using the masthead float idea on a biplane rig. Possibly using a wing spar and a float that has enough buoyancy to stop her going right over.



ref 1979 Fastnet Race Inquiry
http://www.blur.se/images/fastnet-race-inquiry.pdf

ref Etap
Etap 28s Sailboat Review | Cruising World

Yachting Monthly test boat capsize
https://youtu.be/Gqe1Sxa2GXo
;,

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by paulanthony

I do not know a great deal about catamarans except that they make me a little nervous.

I have read the pro catamaran argument that says a cat will not sink if capsized which is all well and good but the probability of a catamaran capsizing far outweighs that of a mono sinking.

I wondered if there is any technology that has dealt with and solved the problem of righting a catamaran hull unaided by external assistance while at sea.

Sure, a sky hook.

[smj]

This is a decent write up on catamarans. Also there are some interesting facts about catamarans and their potential for capsize at the end of the article.
http://www.cruisingworld.com/sailboa...pulting-future

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by monte

Most of the Chris White quotes are taken from part of his advertising speel for his foil mast, twin furling genoa designs so not really applicable. Not that there's anything inherently wrong with those designs. A better source of relevant useful information would be his summary as to why one of his sloop rig design atlantics capsized in a squall, which basically put it down to too much sail up for the conditions and relying on autopilot when handsteering would be more appropriate.

Monte, you nailed it. Has nothing to do with boat size or type. It is reefing before the fact.
Granted in rear conditions it could be sea state. If it is sea state, that causes a turtle, I would want to be on a well ballasted mono, the stiffest one made.

[paulanthony]

Originally Posted by monte

Most of the Chris White quotes are taken from part of his advertising speel for his foil mast, twin furling genoa designs so not really applicable. Not that there's anything inherently wrong with those designs. A better source of relevant useful information would be his summary as to why one of his sloop rig design atlantics capsized in a squall, which basically put it down to too much sail up for the conditions and relying on autopilot when handsteering would be more appropriate.

I am not sure monte. I think the rotating mast ketch design idea he had was inspired after another one of his 57's when turtle. (Anna)

I think it disturbed him a lot and inspired some blue sky thinking to try and get away from the main sail. He still advocates cats but if you read between the lines his philosophy seems to be changing. Not sure he has succeeded yet but he is trying. Fair play to the guy.

I would not go off piste with my family on a chris white type cat but I would like to if I could have some extra safety built in which was something other than snipping the maximum canvas or adding ballast.

There was an Alpha 42 that got hurt and it sounds like it stalled through a tack because of a strong headwind and came back on itself and bent its rudders.

Seems with Cats it is either not enough or too much.

[ZULU40]

Originally Posted by Canibul

Tom Lack bet 10,000 pounds sterling that nobody could flip one of his catamarans or get a photo of one flying a hull. Nobody ever claimed it in 40 years. To answer your next question, so far the best we've done is maintain 8.5 knots for an hour at a time in 18-22 knots across the beam. We can motorsail in lighter winds and pretty much count on 7 knots with sails and one engine on, burning half a gallon per hour. By modern catamaran standards it's not a speedster. But then we didn't get into this to race people. We went for the Winnebago instead of the Corvette.

he also had 800+mm bridgedeck clearance, the problem these days is that no standing headroom in pocket cruisers just inst an acceptable marketing position, and for a business proposition as a builder you would go broke trying it.

On a more positive note, I think more emphasis could be put into anti-slamming as a technology. Refining clearance with asymmetric hulls, hull chines, venturi effect air water ducting and hull aperture sockets might just make a better compromise enabling boat lengths in the low 30s to become a viable offshore alternative. Well maybe...

[paulanthony]

Originally Posted by ZULU40

The 1979 Fastnet Race occurring in admittedly freak weather conditions, out of 303 competitors 5 boats sunk, 100 suffered knock downs, 77 rolled, 24 were abandoned and 15 sailors drowned. Just 85 boats completed the course.

Why is this significant?
After 1979 RORC governing committee made many changes and recommendations with respect to ocean racing with requirements for crews and equipment, and righting moments of boats. Racing safety has improved as a result, but of course it will never be perfect. Also if your boat is earlier than 1979 manufacture, you have something to think about.

One of the first boats proven to be self righting was the Contessa 32, however. Still as it stands very few yachts can claim to be unsinkable. The claim I actually believe in is that made by Etap for their boats, but it seems a sadly lacking statistic. In pursuit of design theory progress as well as individual boat integrity some Brit magazines demonstrate a boats righting ability in calm seas.

I have never heard of a large cat that is self righting, that is not to say it would take considerable effort to knock a large cat over.But I think there would be a way of doing this using the masthead float idea on a biplane rig. Possibly using a wing spar and a float that has enough buoyancy to stop her going right over.



ref 1979 Fastnet Race Inquiry
http://www.blur.se/images/fastnet-race-inquiry.pdf

ref Etap
Etap 28s Sailboat Review | Cruising World

Yachting Monthly test boat capsize
https://youtu.be/Gqe1Sxa2GXo
;,

I could be wrong on this but I think the cat sector is very polarised. It seems to me to consist of either fast glory boy cats that can go over the edge quite easily or leisure cats that sit too far back from the edge with their wings clipped because there is no inexpensive safety tech that lets them get closer. Let me just say IMHO before I have people shouting at me.

[oceane]

for the epic Golden Globe Race, Donald Crowhurst had developped a righting. system..he became so obsess about flipping it in the roaring forty that he jumped overboard instead of going to the 40's!!!??
i guess that solved any problem of flipping it...!!!??
very good read.

boats have no eyes and brain, so they usually make it...in most cases...! but with fear and human error the story end-up differently.

anyway a bad day at sea is a bad a sea, what ever is your ride.

sorry for saying not much with this all....

[med]

Originally Posted by paulanthony

I could be wrong on this but I think the cat sector is very polarised. It seems to me to consist of either fast glory boy cats that can go over the edge quite easily or leisure cats that sit too far back from the edge with their wings clipped because there is no inexpensive safety tech that lets them get closer. Let me just say IMHO before I have people shouting at me.

Outremer does a "light" version which may be has its wings clipped a little less than most cruising cats.

http://www.catamaran-outremer.com/en...remer-55-light