is longer really more expensive?

[Mark424]

Originally Posted by Heath68

Hi All,

At the risk of being the 3rd "live" debate about the costs of running cats, I have been trying to convince myself (and the Mrs) that 6ft extra boat (cat) shouldn't be too much more money.

Buy a 44' boat, take it to a reputable boat yard, have them add 2' to the bows and 4' to the stern. Most cats from the large builders are too heavy, and have hulls that are too wide. So you'll improve the D/L ratio, improve your hull beam/length ratio which will reduce wave making resistance. All the running costs will be the same. And a bonus, you'll be able to carry a larger dinghy without submerging your sterns. If you want to improve the SA/D, then get a huge Code 0 or asymmetric. Win, win, win.

[pathlesschosen]

Is longer really more expensive? Yes.

[Heath68]

Originally Posted by Tusitala

here's a few things from our experience for comparison. We and some friends ordered sails as a group purchase from a sailmaker. Their boat is 40' and on the serious perfomance end of the curve, while our boat is a 34' cruiser. we were able to puchase a mainsail, complete with headboard and battens, a headsail and a roller furler for what a bare mainsail cost for the 40, no battens, no headboard.

Just over a year ago I did a bottom job on a 50 footer. On our 34' a gallon and a half of bottom paint will do 2-3 really good coats. on the 50 I did 5 coats but used 11 gallons of paint. not counting the prep work which was considerable.

another consideration would be running rigging, especially halyards. I can replace a halyard, doing my own splicing, for under $200. On a 40 or 50 foot boat, not only is the line much longer but the size and working loads ( read $$$) go up massively.

Pat

Thanks Pat. So you think it's closer to say 30% to 50% more for the extra length.
That's interesting as that would definitely be in the "prohibitively expensive" category and put us in a smaller boat.

Heath

[Heath68]

Originally Posted by kcj

Recently chose a lagoon 470 over the 41' or so versions

A few additional thoughts to add to the good comments already posted---

My biggest cost/issue with the bigger boat is getting her hauled, once across the 23' beam barrier there are limited places to haul out.

You can't do the icw with a 65'+ mast. For the most part it doesn't bother me, save trying to get around hatterass.

For the most part, when on the hook it's all the same once you've paid for the heavier ground tackle.

More sail to handle but the extra waterline makes for a faster smoother ride, also smoother on the hook.

Ymmv Good luck

Hi kcj

Yes hauling out could be a problem. If there's few places to choose from the price could go up exponentially.

The ICW doesn't bother me much either as I'm planning to be one of those "different types" as one commenter put it and be more interested in circumnavigating rather than cruising or sitting in one location for months at a time.
We do see comfort advantages in the bigger cats. Our "problem" is that the boats we like are 50ft, the ones we'd have as 2nd choice come out at 44. The sweet spot for us would probably be 47-48 but offerings from Lagoon don't excite us, Leopards are too heavy and slow, FP is only really 15" longer than the 44 but with an additional $120000 price tag we cannot justify. Antares and Chris Whites are just $silly and we don't ideally want a cat older than 5yrs.
[emoji12]

[Heath68]

Originally Posted by Mark424

Buy a 44' boat, take it to a reputable boat yard, have them add 2' to the bows and 4' to the stern. Most cats from the large builders are too heavy, and have hulls that are too wide. So you'll improve the D/L ratio, improve your hull beam/length ratio which will reduce wave making resistance. All the running costs will be the same. And a bonus, you'll be able to carry a larger dinghy without submerging your sterns. If you want to improve the SA/D, then get a huge Code 0 or asymmetric. Win, win, win.

Mark you sound braver than me.. but honestly I'd never thought of that. Refitting a cat however, especially lengthening it at the same time I'm guessing would be $lots and surely simply mean I've spent almost the same on the purchase as I would have if I'd just plumbed for a 50?? (I'm asking as I have no clue).
We're selling the house and can get a cat up to around $800k without a loan. So we can plumb for an older 50 or newer 44 and stick the change in the bank.
I'll still be earning en-route so "reasonable" ongoing costs of a 44 don't worry me at all... It's not knowing how much extra the 50ft is likely to cost me... And we prefer the inside of the 50s. They are not IKEA lookalikes made for a charter market (we love the interior of the Antares/Privilege/Xquisite) and they also have that bit more space (we still only want 3* cabins).

[ausaviator]

Get on-board a Lagoon 38.
Then get on-board a Lagoon 40.

It's like there's 2 extra feet in every section of the boat. It doesn't make sense!

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

. Even a 42 ft cat is 40%-50% too much room for a couple actually.

For you maybe.

[Copacabana]

Originally Posted by Heath68

Hi All,

At the risk of being the 3rd "live" debate about the costs of running cats, I have been trying to convince myself (and the Mrs) that 6ft extra boat (cat) shouldn't be too much more money.

I'll be honest though and say that I'm at a bit of a loss. If i read posts people put in here its "the longer it is the more money it costs!!!" and "it all adds up" etc.. so I'm mindful that i probably don't know enough. One post recently said that he knew of couples who'd bought too big only to then have to sell as they ran out of money.. so i really don't want to be one of those stats, particularly because I'm really hopeful of getting ours this year.

So here's my thinking: 44ft Cat vs 50ft cat.

Engines/Generators:
both got 2x engines so should be the same (admittedly I'm expecting to pay a bit more for a replacement on the 50ft than the 44ft as it'll probably be a slightly larger engine say 75hp vs 50hp). The Generator may be bigger (9.5 vs 13.5kw) but like the sails below, is there a massive price difference if i need to replace it?

Marina costs:
6ft longer = $6-18 more per night I can live with that.

Sails:
Now here I don't know but lets say for argument Mailsail 44=750sqft 50=950sqft. Does that equal 26% more in replacement costs? Or do sail makers rub their hands together and go "That'll be 50% more thanks"?? Also I have no idea of the warps/halyards situation so have assumed about the same??

Electronics: (GPS/Autopilot/Radar/Nav etc)
Surely the same? same goes for Toilets/Sinks/Cookers/washing machines/fridges/freezers/ice makers/BBQ?

Tender:
Now i hadn't thought of this so any help would be great.. 44=10ft 10hp vs ? with 25hp?? i don't know.

Basically the cats we love are all 50 footers but we won't take them on if the ongoing cost is really miles more than a 44.. its making sure our cloth is cut properly.

Any info and help or suggestions would be appreciated.

A longer boat is more expensive to run and maintain, for all the reasons stated above, but there are other things to consider as well.

The longer boat (the 50ft cat, compared to the 44ft cat) is also more expensive to purchase. When you consider that the boat is a depreciating asset (perhaps losing 10% a year), this can really add up over time when comparing boats. So, the more money you have tied up in the boat, the more you are losing in depreciation and the more “expensive” it becomes. Also, insurance is more expensive.

By spending less of your assets on the boat, you can park the saved money in something that gives you a return (rental income, dividends etc.). This also adds up over the years.

Another thing to consider (and this is just my view on this) is that the more expensive the boat, the more stress you have. There are people who sell their houses and put the money into a boat- basically putting all their assets into a boat. It’s very hard to relax when you have so much of your capital tied up in a boat. Any scratch while docking is a trauma. Anchoring in bad weather is more worrisome. I know people who never leave their boat unattended for fear of something happening to the boat. If you have less money (as a percentage of your assets) tied up in the boat, you are more inclined to leave the boat for some days and rent a car to go exploring the mountains in a new country. And by spending less on the smaller boat, you have more money available to rent cars, get off the boat and explore- perhaps stay in a nice inn for a change. I think it’s great to get off the boat every month or so to do something different (and enjoy being served meals, long hot showers and so on).

A final consideration is your time and effort. A smaller boat will require less maintenance, cleaning, bottom scrubbing, waxing, polishing etc. More time free of boat chores means more time to enjoy the places you visit. It’s very easy to end up becoming a slave to a big, complex boat, where you spend most of your time fixing things and basically living to keep the boat up. Some people like this. Ask yourself if it’s something you would like. All boats take up time to be kept in tip-top shape, but a smaller, simpler boat will always take less of your time (assuming we are comparing boats of equal initial levels of upkeep).

There is a lot of allure with bigger boats- Wow! Look at all that room! They offer more comfort (and perhaps even safety). But, in the end, longer boats usually just offer more berths. The settee sofas are the same length, the galley is probably not much bigger, the head may be a little bigger and there is a bit more space overall, but look at how much of the extra space on a longer boat is dedicated to cabins. If you need the cabins for your regular crew, it makes sense, but if the smaller boat gives you a berth for every regular crew member, then perhaps it doesn’t make so much sense to get the bigger boat.

At any rate, I’m not trying to dissuade you from the bigger boat. I just wanted to throw out a few ideas to mull over. You don’t state what kind of experience you have with boat ownership, so I may be preaching to the converted. However, if you are just getting into sailing and the idea of cruising, the allure of a bigger boat can be a bit of a pitfall.

[CatNewBee]

Almost everything is more expensive on a larger vessel. Very often it has to be stronger (Larger winches, windlass, anchor chain, anchor, rigging, sails...). Many fees depend on length and beam in marinas, also bottom paint jobs will be more expensive, lifting out of the water is more expensive, insurance costs, anything.

Also registration, documentation and equipment requirements - depending on your jurisdiction - may be different for a larger vessel.

Don't forget, the bigger the vessel the more elbow grease you may have to spend to maintain and sail it. Smaller cat can be operated by manual winches, the bigger ones need very often electric winches. If you have to fix something on the sails in a gale, a larger one may put you physically in some trouble.

A larger boat may need a crew to operate while a smaller can be handled single-handed.

It's not just the purchase price. You can find a 50th less expensive than a 43ft by chance. But the re-fitting after the purchase can end up ways more expensive at the end.

Chose the size according to your crew needs. If you sail with a crowd, a 50ft may be just right, if you sail just the two of you, consider something smaller (38-43ft).

[LeeV]

Originally Posted by Heath68

Hi kcj

We do see comfort advantages in the bigger cats. Our "problem" is that the boats we like are 50ft, the ones we'd have as 2nd choice come out at 44. The sweet spot for us would probably be 47-48 but offerings from Lagoon don't excite us, Leopards are too heavy and slow, FP is only really 15" longer than the 44 but with an additional $120000 price tag we cannot justify. Antares and Chris Whites are just $silly and we don't ideally want a cat older than 5yrs.
[emoji12]

I won't repeat all the intelligent wisdom shared thus far, but I would suggest that before you dismiss any boat ("Leopards are too heavy and slow") you reconsider based on your usage and goal. We think the Leopards are the hest made of those you mentioned although we're leaning toward the FP, BUT....if I were planning to circumnavigate I'd buy the 45 or 50 Leopard in a heartbeat. They have no more/less issues than the others, but are built to sail in heavy weather, and I'd rather be in a tank than a VW beetle! ;-)

In our case, we'll never live aboard, but the Admiral thinks she'd like to spend a few months aboard sailing up/down the east coast, and a 40/42 will do so nicely.

Just sayin', hope for the best, plan for the worst.

Regards,

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Heath68

The ICW doesn't bother me much either as I'm planning to be one of those "different types" as one commenter put it and be more interested in circumnavigating rather than cruising or sitting in one location for months at a time.

Well you have just answered my question of were you are thinking of going.

I am reminded of a summer evening we spent in St Peter Port, Guernsey, watching the harbour master staff organise dozens of arrivals whilst we enjoyed our G&T from the aft deck of our 31 footer. Slowly and very gingerly a huge catamaran worked its way through the harbour and moored boats to a position just in front of us. It looked new and the skipper nervous in the tight confines of the harbour. Eventually a member of the harbour staff pulled alongside them and without further ado told them they were far to big to enter the marina or stay on the outside harbour pontoons so they must moor up on the fish dock. The skippers wife was aghast at the thought of climbing up the slimy metal ladder to reach the top of the jetty.

What exactly would the two of you miss out on with a 44ft cat?

I think you should charter a 44ft yacht first.

[LeeV]

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[stefnieman]

53 ft monohull is the best length for cruising around the world and best length for wave controle!

[akprb]

Get the 50’

Tell the Missis I said so :-)

[stefnieman]

Originally Posted by akprb

Get the 50’

Tell the Missis I said so :-)