In Escrow on Lavezzi 40and about to cancel. HELP!!

[geoleo]

Originally Posted by spinnerbug

Also, the listing for the boat represented that one engine is new. Turns out the engine was installed in July of 2014. Maybe this is marketing or is it just deceptive adverting and reason enough to walk?

Don't walk-RUN! Boat at sale price also way overpriced

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by geoleo

Don't walk-RUN! Boat at sale price also way overpriced

So what exactly is wrong with the boat?
And what is your evidence that a typical 2004 Lavezzi owners version sells for much less?

[spinnerbug]

Originally Posted by duefocena

Hope this doesn't offend too many but there are some points here that should be brought to life. Spinnerbug repeatedly states that they are doing this "all on their own " and the SELLING broker didn't want to lower his commission. It might have been better for them to consult a broker to act on their part. The selling broker's allegiance is always to the seller. Maybe he didn't want to lower his commission because he felt it was priced right and had others who would buy it. A fairly late model 40' catamaran for $140k-$150k is very cheap around here. Maybe the reason the listing said "new engine" was because the listing was a year old, ( a buying broker could have found out how long it had been listed, if there had been a price drop or raise etc.)
There was a bulkhead dislodged and yet I heard little of how catastrophic that may have been to this cat. Sail drives are a pain, expensive to deal with and always need maintenance. Haul every year? I haul every three and could go 4 easily on still good paint. I suggest keep looking, Hire a professional. Don't be in such a hurry to "move in".

@duefocena - All of what you say is true. The boat has been on the market for about 1 year. Listings can be updated and you're right, the broker could have been upfront about it not being a new engine when we spoke multiple times. He also could have mentioned that the sail drive was full of water in 2013 and has been that way since. in doing more research, he had all of that knowledge.

It's well within his ability to not lower the commission, you are correct. My point is, he could have and he could have saved the deal. Because we were acting on our own there was no buy side commission. He was greedy. That's not right or wrong, it's just plain true. Maybe he served his client well, maybe he didn't. IMO, a good broker keeps the deal alive until it can't be held together. It's just my opinion though.

Also, boats seem to sell for a premium out your way. We were paying about retail and probably more once the refit was done. That's why I walked.

[spinnerbug]

Originally Posted by rabbi

So what exactly is wrong with the boat?
And what is your evidence that a typical 2004 Lavezzi owners version sells for much less?

@rabbi- I can't tell you what galeo was thinking but I can tell you, similar boats in similar condition sell for between $160k and $170k give or take.

What was wrong was the delayed maintenance stuff. Unknown condition of sail drives, rudders that have been broken and half repaired, rudder rudder bushings shot, corroded engine, corrode refer unit, bad inverter, electric issues, there's a bit of a list. None of this was particularly scary but the list adds up quickly.

If we bought the boat at $160k and were to pay a yard to the work we be paying another $10k just for the top 15 list. That didn't include the sail drive maint. If the sail drives are shot from sitting in salt water for 4 years, I don't know what the cost but I'm guess we can add more thousands to that order.

Then, there's the idea of "what next?". This is always an issue with a boat I guess but it sure feels like more of a big deal when the owner and broker aren't disclosing all of this stuff that they haven't fixed for years.

[spinnerbug]

Originally Posted by Factor

So once the broker has done her job she should make less money?

@Factor - if the broker would have done the job, he would have made a commission. At this point, he's made nothing.

There are two sides to a broker commission, he was trying to hog the whole deal because i was acting as our broker. If I were an actual broker, he would have given me half of his commission. Thus, he had the ability to kick in to save the deal. It's a common practice. If he sells the boat through another broker he has the potential to make less money now because he will have reciprocity with that broker. Usually he would give up half of the commission.

In the real estate world, we do it all of the time. At least the seasoned operators do. Pigs get fat. Hogs get slaughtered.

[Barra]

^^^ correct. Odd that the broker would give up the sale given he has full commission to play with. It is the busy time of the year for boat sales though so guess hes feeling lucky.

Owner will probably now make the rectifications himself prompted by the survey and broker will hope to keep full commission on next sale.

Dont worry about geoloeo hes a perennial underbidder on boat value - manly cos hes been in the "gonna buy one day" stage for years now.

[spinnerbug]

Originally Posted by Barra

^^^ correct. Odd that the broker would give up the sale given he has full commission to play with. It is the busy time of the year for boat sales though so guess hes feeling lucky.

Owner will probably now make the rectifications himself prompted by the survey and broker will hope to keep full commission on next sale.

Dont worry about geoloeo hes a perennial underbidder on boat value - manly cos hes been in the "gonna buy one day" stage for years now.

If the owner fixes the boat now, he is more of a fool than one can imagine. Either that, or at some point in my life I pee'd in his gym bag.

We were aggressive in our ask but he could have come back and offered to fix just a couple of things that were glaring and I have to believe anyone is going to have at least a bit of an issue reconciling. I think he wants a higher contract price and then will be willing to fix. Maybe same net. Maybe he loses. Gamblers will do what they do. All I can do is cry about it on CF.

Nice to have someone who listens.

[David Mark]

A 2004 model , how much was it new ?

[spinnerbug]

Originally Posted by David Mark

A 2004 model , how much was it new ?

$320k, give or take.

[Mrfish]

RUN

my two cents

[jmac9365]

If your gut tells you it's no good don't buy it there's plenty of boats for sale

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by spinnerbug

Hope this brings back some memories for all who purchased a boat for the first time... Would like some quick feedback. Today is the last day we can accept the vessel.

My wife and I are currently in escrow on a Lavezzi 40 lying in Norfolk, VA. After survey we found multiple safety issues with the electrical and the sail drives were so full of water they could not test the chemical composition of the oil. We asked the seller to fix the sail drives and reduce the cost of the boat. Their response was the contract says no concessions but they are willing to concede $2500 and that's it. I'm inclined to walk. Particulars are below. Feel free to tell me I'm an idiot... that would not be an unwarranted statement http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...lies/smile.gif

2004 Lavezzi 40 Maestro
Asking price: $180k
Contract Price: $160k
Asked for concessions: fix sail drives and $15k for safety and delayed maintenance.


Major issues found - there were two more pages of minor issues but from what I understand, nothing that doesn't show up in most surveys.

sail drive full of sea water - asked for flush and seal

The rest: I asked for $15k in concessions. Have underlined the big concerns and big ticket items.

Bottom paint completely gone

1. *Batteries-4 6volt and 1 12 volt with cables must be secured per ABYC E-11.
2. *Galley stove gas system must be made to be rigged with a solenoid, gauge lines per ABYC A- 1.
3. *Port hull doors do not close-very much in need of adjustments.
4. *Leaking fresh water system must be corrected. Leaking head hand pump must be repaired.
5. *Water heater switch was not working. Invertor and wind machine were reportedly not
working.
6. *Nav station 110 volt outlet had an open ground.
7. *GFCI Protection should be installed. Inverter doesn't work.
8. *Port aft cabin outlet had reverse polarity.
9. *Worn rudder bushings should be replaced.
10. *Badly rusted reefer compressor should be descaled and recoated.
11. *Cracked bulkhead under salon settee must be repaired.
12. *Starboard shower “sump” was not working.
13. *Galley sink faucet was not working/broken.
14. *All safety as required by the USCG should be installed. No deck running lights were fitted.

This boat is one of only 3 for sale in the US, and your contract price is $30 - $50K below the asking price of the other boats. Sounds like a pretty good starting point for good deal. This thread caught my eye, as the Lavezzi is on our penciled shortlist.

Most of the items listed are trivial, and much of it is the kind of stuff that a normal owner might not even notice, and certainly won't pay someone to fix. Items 1, 2, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 12, and 13 are probably in that category, especially if the boat is for sale. The words sound horrible, but I'll bet the boat was functional. Many of the owners on this list are actively involved in their boats, and might notice and personally fix them. But I know a lot of boat owners that pay to maintain their boat, and since they aren't intimately involved, they don't notice things.

Item 14, "no deck running lights fitted" is odd. Does this mean they were removed? They are not functional? The surveyor couldn't find them? Or FP failed to install them when the boat was built? After looking at a half-dozen Lavezzi's on Yacthworld, I can't seem to see any visible running lights. I think this is more likely a reflection on Fountaine Pajot, and not this particular boat. The Olson 30 I race on falls in that last catgory -- I can find ZERO evidence of deck level running lights ever existing.

Item 9, steering bushings, is odd too. Do FP steering bushings fail that fast? Or is the surveyor "suggesting" and being too strong? I believe the steering bushings on my '79 Sabre 34 are original. If FP bushings need replacing every decade, that's an expensive bit of routine maintenance!

But the big items. 3 and 11, and the saildrives. These are the only items I would even think about. The saildrives are a big concern for me as I consider the idea of a cat as my next boat -- saildrives have a lot of bad press, which may or may not be earned. If they can't be put back into good shape with a heavy dose of "maintenance" (seals, oil, etc), then that can be big dollars. Get a professional answer on that. And the cracked bulkhead and door closing issue could range from minor to major -- again get a professional review of the issue. The Olson 30 I sail on fell from its boat hoist, and the boat yard put it all back together again (including de-tabbed bulkheads). Most anything can be fixed.

With the exception of these 3 biggies, the boat sounds pretty awesome, at a pretty awesome price, for a 13 year old 40-foot cat in the US. You can do better, perhaps (especially by upping your year-range to something under 6 or 8 years old) -- but few 13 year old boats are maintained in like-new condition. Have you looked at any of the other 3 Lavezzi's in the US? I wonder how the survey on the $208K one would compare. It's only a 4 hour drive away!

Harry
Rantum Scoot
'79 Sabre 34
Mill Creek, Annapolis

[geoleo]

OK -buy it if you want to spend most of your time fixing it in next year or two

[spinnerbug]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

This boat is one of only 3 for sale in the US, and your contract price is $30 - $50K below the asking price of the other boats. Sounds like a pretty good starting point for good deal. This thread caught my eye, as the Lavezzi is on our penciled shortlist.

Most of the items listed are trivial, and much of it is the kind of stuff that a normal owner might not even notice, and certainly won't pay someone to fix. Items 1, 2, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 12, and 13 are probably in that category, especially if the boat is for sale. The words sound horrible, but I'll bet the boat was functional. Many of the owners on this list are actively involved in their boats, and might notice and personally fix them. But I know a lot of boat owners that pay to maintain their boat, and since they aren't intimately involved, they don't notice things.

Item 14, "no deck running lights fitted" is odd. Does this mean they were removed? They are not functional? The surveyor couldn't find them? Or FP failed to install them when the boat was built? After looking at a half-dozen Lavezzi's on Yacthworld, I can't seem to see any visible running lights. I think this is more likely a reflection on Fountaine Pajot, and not this particular boat. The Olson 30 I race on falls in that last catgory -- I can find ZERO evidence of deck level running lights ever existing.

Item 9, steering bushings, is odd too. Do FP steering bushings fail that fast? Or is the surveyor "suggesting" and being too strong? I believe the steering bushings on my '79 Sabre 34 are original. If FP bushings need replacing every decade, that's an expensive bit of routine maintenance!

But the big items. 3 and 11, and the saildrives. These are the only items I would even think about. The saildrives are a big concern for me as I consider the idea of a cat as my next boat -- saildrives have a lot of bad press, which may or may not be earned. If they can't be put back into good shape with a heavy dose of "maintenance" (seals, oil, etc), then that can be big dollars. Get a professional answer on that. And the cracked bulkhead and door closing issue could range from minor to major -- again get a professional review of the issue. The Olson 30 I sail on fell from its boat hoist, and the boat yard put it all back together again (including de-tabbed bulkheads). Most anything can be fixed.

With the exception of these 3 biggies, the boat sounds pretty awesome, at a pretty awesome price, for a 13 year old 40-foot cat in the US. You can do better, perhaps (especially by upping your year-range to something under 6 or 8 years old) -- but few 13 year old boats are maintained in like-new condition. Have you looked at any of the other 3 Lavezzi's in the US? I wonder how the survey on the $208K one would compare. It's only a 4 hour drive away!

Harry
Rantum Scoot
'79 Sabre 34
Mill Creek, Annapolis

Thanks for the input Harry. I'll try and answer as best I can.

Price: one of the lavezzi for sale in U.S. sold for ~170k. Same ag don't know condition or specs.

Condition: Half of the stuff listed on this boat don't work or are close to work out. Example: inverter and refer unit. Yes, easy to replace but still costs money.

We walked when the seller dug in on the sail drives and we found out they have been full of sea water and not serviced since 2013. Could be that they are fine but the owner wanted to sell as is and we couldn't come to satisfactory discount for the risk.

Also, I spoke with a broker out that way and they had this boat under contract. Buyer walked for similar reasons. Seems as though this seller has a price he wants and is waiting for the " right " buyer to come along.

Oh yea, rudder bushings... Seems common on go if this size range. I've seen chatter about lavezzi and mahi with same issue. On this boat, the rudder shaft broke and was temporarily fixed bit never prrmanatly. At least from what I can tell. This is another reason I think wr made a good choice on walking. The broker knows the entire history of the boat bit didn't disclose this type of stuff. That makes me feel very on edge about what I can't find.

He would respond to that statement by saying" it's a boat, they're always broken". When I'm spending 200k on something that line gets old really fast.

[sailpower]

Originally Posted by spinnerbug

@Factor - if the broker would have done the job, he would have made a commission. At this point, he's made nothing.

There are two sides to a broker commission, he was trying to hog the whole deal because i was acting as our broker. If I were an actual broker, he would have given me half of his commission. Thus, he had the ability to kick in to save the deal. It's a common practice. If he sells the boat through another broker he has the potential to make less money now because he will have reciprocity with that broker. Usually he would give up half of the commission.

In the real estate world, we do it all of the time. At least the seasoned operators do. Pigs get fat. Hogs get slaughtered.

You were a buyer. How were you acting as a broker?

Do you have a bonded escrow account or were you using the listing brokers?

Did you create the purchase agreement or did the listing broker?

Were you suppying all the completed closong paperwork from the buyers side or was the listing agent doing everything?

Are you licensed by your state to file and remit sales tax?

Etc.

Against a 16k commission you asked for a 15k adjustment and a saildrive repair and then complain that the broker wouldn't work with you!

The boat will eventually sell and he will get paid. Whether his share is 5k or 8k, no big deal. I don't know any brokerage houses that will cut a commission that small.

But, it's always your call to move on and pay to survey something else.