If Gunboats Can Have This, Why Can’t I?

[ghendoaus]

Check out his video - this guy is a kiwi that used to race and repair Americas Cup yachts - he is not very complimentary about these types of systems.
https://youtu.be/EzbHePQj8SA?t=720

[Jetx]

Originally Posted by Chotu

So you don’t think a system like this would work well with the double mainsheet? I’m using an electric winch for that.

We have a similar arrangement for main halyard, reefing lines, outhaul and topping lift, and that works well. They’re mostly set and forget, and don’t often need adjusting.

But I don’t think I’d do it for the (twin) mainsheets… you adjust them much more frequently, and it’s helpful to have each on its own winch so you’re not juggling lines and clutches constantly.

If course I’m biased, because that’s the way our boat is set up, but I think in this case the Catana guys got it about right.

[thinwater]

I set up my tri to use either system, with a 1-minute change-over process (all clips).


Which is better? I went back to the traveler system for a bunch of reasons that I wrote up in Practical Sailor. There are a few theoretical advantages, but they were outweighed by less effective gusty weather trimming.


It is a jury rig that every sailor should know. No question, you could happily cross an ocean with that rig. It's pretty good.

[Karanga]

Wishbone boom?
These seem to have not caught on, and I can't find out why not.
A properly set up wishbone boom appears to enable all the forces desired for twist and angle. Without a traveller and without a vang.
Can anyone explain why wishbone booms haven't been more widely adopted?

[David B]

Originally Posted by Chotu

So I’ve been looking at travelers for a while and I came across this old pic of a Gunboat I had to look at the davits.

Well, it has a different system without a traveler.

Why shouldn’t I do that?

Have a look at the Beneteau Oceanis 50 G5 (or later models also with the arch).
It works well for us, and I have never wanted for a traveler.
Basically from boom to port block to boom to stb block to boom, along boom to gooseneck to mast base and back to cockpit.

Sounds like a fair bit of friction - especially with 16mm double braid, but it is no issue at all. The only time I notice it is if I want to get the boom out to the shrouds in very light wind, and I have to give it a nudge.

[catsketcher]

Originally Posted by Cavalier MK2

I've used a double mainsheet, precise end boom control with a bit of effort. What I would up with is a centerline mainsheet with end boom preventers to the amas on my tri instead of a vang. Precise, safe and faster. I got tired of rigging the vang for a preventer, this skips the temptation to not rig on a short run and adds positive control to jibing as well as holding the boom down better. A bit more spaghetti but the preventer doesn't need anything more than turning blocks as the mainsheet is used for muscle.

Gday Cav

I had this type of setup on my Twiggy and I liked it. A central mainsheet with lots of purchase and then a port and starboard preventer. I like having the preventer on a block, starting at the deck and then outboard. This allows you to trim or ease the main quite a bit before you need to adjust the mainsheet tension. This is a lot easier to trim on fast boat than the twin setup. Or you could just use a composite wishbone and have a single central mainsheet like I have - love it still.

[catsketcher]

Originally Posted by Karanga

Wishbone boom?
These seem to have not caught on, and I can't find out why not.
A properly set up wishbone boom appears to enable all the forces desired for twist and angle. Without a traveller and without a vang.
Can anyone explain why wishbone booms haven't been more widely adopted?

I absolutely love my wishbone but there are some compromises that I am very happy to accept.

They work really well on spreaderless three stay a side rigs. These used to look old fashioned until Ultimes and MOD 70s got rid of spreaders. Now they are cool again but cruising multis like diamonds. You have a real problem fitting in a wishbone with diamonds and the thrust forward needs a lower stay. I love the rig as I get a nice inner forestay for my storm jib and it is much cheaper for me to build and maintain.

You don't get forestay tension from mainsheet tension - so you need to have a good rig tension already. No real worry for me as I cruise, so I back off and put up the staysail in over 20 knots anyway. Such a secure feeling having that little sail up - I never ever reef the genoa.

You need to have a good reefing system. I got a design from a guy who worked it all out using a clutch at the end of the wishbone. Great system.

I am still rapt with the system and my boat is a bit of a performance boat. People always think that a wishbone will be slower because of extra windage, and that may be the case in racing. For a cruiser, you probably will be slowing down going to windward in anything over 15 knots in a seaway- to keep the speed down to around 8 knots. So maybe I lose a little speed going to windward up to 15 knots and then well all back off then anyway. But I am much faster downwind all the time. A wishbone is a fantastic boom for deep downwind and we can really get it on. Also the wishbone protects the main, my main is 21 years old and still looks pretty good up to 15 knots. Also the cockpit is heaps safer with very little load on the single mainsheet. I have a maximum 8-1 setup with no winch and it works well. On top of that, I can trim my boat as easily as I trim a 28ft mono - so she gets trimmed properly all the time.

Wishbones are a great choice for a custom boat. They remove the huge mainsheet tension from the cockpit. In the 21 years I have sailed my cat I have had 3 motor systems, 3 dodger/bridgedeck cabins and 3 steering systems. I change heaps of stuff - but the wishbone has stayed and will always stay.

[Cavalier MK2]

Looks good Phil. I'm inspired for a Fenger ketch style inverted wishbone for a backstay mizzen to supplement the pin top main in light wind. A light air modular square top to play with, I'll repurpose a jib for the experiment next summer.

Yep sheeting the main as described works great, the preventer blocks are on the amas near the sterns, while they can be repositioned to allow 90 degree to the wind on the main the truth is with any speed the apparent wind moves enough forward to make it not necessary often.

[2gr8escape]

New Balance 526 are set up with double mainsheet points... https://youtu.be/m-hr2xjVqHs

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by 2gr8escape

New Balance 526 are set up with double mainsheet points... https://youtu.be/m-hr2xjVqHs

You will note in that video that 'for sailing downwind' he still moves the mainsheet positions to the centre and the sidedeck, creating a preventer system.

Of course this is basically what the boats with travellers and a single mainsheet do - they add a preventer to the leeward sidedeck.

So I'm not sure that the 'A-frame' system reduces the work required. In fact it may increase it. As a minimum it's the same since a preventer is still being manually created and attached.

On larger boats sometimes the preventer system is part of the original rig design and simply unclips from the boom when needed. This idea can be used on smaller boats too of course.

The A-frame system may reduce clutter on the aft deck and is cheaper.

The Traveller system still gives more options in terms of sail trim.

In a boat with a forward cockpit I would think carefully about the workflow and the practical aspects of line handling while sailing, especially when short handed, to better understand which option makes more sense.

[catsketcher]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

You will note in that video that 'for sailing downwind' he still moves the mainsheet positions to the centre and the sidedeck, creating a preventer system.

Of course this is basically what the boats with travellers and a single mainsheet do - they add a preventer to the leeward sidedeck.

So I'm not sure that the 'A-frame' system reduces the work required. In fact it may increase it. As a minimum it's the same since a preventer is still being manually created and attached.

On larger boats sometimes the preventer system is part of the original rig design and simply unclips from the boom when needed. This idea can be used on smaller boats too of course.

The A-frame system may reduce clutter on the aft deck and is cheaper.

The Traveller system still gives more options in terms of sail trim.

In a boat with a forward cockpit I would think carefully about the workflow and the practical aspects of line handling while sailing, especially when short handed, to better understand which option makes more sense.

It looks nicely worked out but I would like to see them do the ease and the shifting of sheet positions under sail in 20 knots or so. There would be loads of over 10000 Newtons in the mainsheet which you cannot hold. So I am unsure how you would change the sheet lead positions in a bear away situation. It seems that it could be very dangerous to pull the snapshackle and have the tackle you are holding fly around. But they have done it so they must be able to handle it. But it would be safer with a central mainsheet.

The presenter says that the system is infinitely better at trim than a traveller system. He is incorrect there. I think it is less effective as you cannot separate leech tension from boom angle of attack automatically as you can in a traveller system. So beware of marketing hype here.

I still think I would prefer a central mainsheet with preventers each side like my old Twiggy had.

[jmh2002]

@catsketcher yes I concur with your points.

Originally Posted by catsketcher

It looks nicely worked out but I would like to see them do the ease and the shifting of sheet positions under sail in 20 knots or so.

Yeah, I guess the most efficient procedure would be:

- reposition the leeward mainsheet outboard whilst it's not under load
- bear off and totally ease the weather mainsheet
- let the load come on the leeward mainsheet
- reposition the weather mainsheet
- retrim the weather mainsheet as appropriate

There's a couple of variations on that but either way it's quite fiddly. Ok if you are ocean sailing and will be on that leg for days but maybe a pain at other times.

NB: the leeward mainsheet that is now a preventer really needs to be lead both outboard AND forward to be more effective.

Also if you have a forward cockpit like a Gunboat (or I believe like OP Chotu's) then you need to come to the aft cockpit each time to change the mainsheet positions. Of course that can be done, and again on an ocean passage it's less of a big deal, but I do think it somewhat defeats the purpose of a forward cockpit where everything is led to one place.

By contrast on a traveller equipped boat (especially one with preventers built in on each side):

- ease the traveller
- ease the mainsheet as appropriate
- trim the preventer

All of which can be done from one position on a well setup boat.

Originally Posted by catsketcher

The presenter says that the system is infinitely better at trim than a traveller system. He is incorrect there. I think it is less effective as you cannot separate leech tension from boom angle of attack automatically as you can in a traveller system. So beware of marketing hype here.

Agreed

I only really agree with one point in the video, and that is that it radically reduces the amount of deck equipment required, saving cost, weight, etc.

But what he said about trim, and twist, and tacking upwind without touching sheets all working so much better than a traveller equipped boat is just nonsense for the most part.

As catsketcher said "beware of marketing hype" (in that video).

The Traveller system still gives more options in terms of sail trim.

If it didn't then racing boats would have abandoned travellers decades ago.

[GRIT]

I tried both systems on our old Corbin 39. I found the double sheets to be a lot more work, since whatever you do to the boom, requires adjustment of both sheets.

Move the boom a foot downwind, by letting the windward sheet go. But then the boom raises up, so you have to tension the leeward sheet to keep the twist as it was.

Same for heading up: If you bring the boom to windward, you've first got to let the leeward sheet loose, then pull the boom to windward with the windward sheet. Now, you've got to re-tension the leech... by tightening on the leeward sheet, the windward sheet, or both.

I found it to be far more work than I was willing to invest in something that used to be so easy, with a track and car.

I toyed with the idea on this boat, when designing the rigging, but was quickly reminded of why I disliked it on the old boat.

I'd vote against the double sheeting system.

Cheers.
Paul.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by GRIT

I found it to be far more work than I was willing to invest in something that used to be so easy, with a track and car.

This is my opinion too

What initially appears to be an easy and simple system actually seems to create a lot of unnecessary work in reality.

[jmh2002]

PS: @Grit

How do you have your preventer system setup? Is it led to the forward cockpit?

Do you have any photos that you can post?