How many cats have flipped ?

[KC375]

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[Matsubob]

Definitely true that a combination of factors will flip a catamaran. And a major one is design but the cat's characteristics and a monohull's are totally different, so there is no way to compare.
A catamaran doesn't heel likea mono simply because of the width of the beam and its having a hull at the extreme edge. However, the very characteristic that makes them fast (light weight) is what allows them to become overpowered suddenly.
With a huge keel not being necessary as is on a monohull, the hulls can have less displacement; however, because of the narrowness of the hulls, there is not enough "reserve buoyancy" for when the wind suddenly pipes up, and the leeward bow is driven farther down into the water. This action, if extreme, can actually bury the bow, causing a "tripping effect" that will trip the boat and flip her. This action would typically occur on a broad reach or a run, so, as the wind strength builds from abeam or abaft the beam, pressure increases on the leeward bow to stay on the surface, and if overdriven, the boat will ultimately flip.
So theone of the telltale signs that reefing is required would be when the bow starts struggling to keep its footing.
When close hauled, the same phenomenon can present itself because of speed and lateral forces being applied directly to the sails, causing the leeward bow to "catch on waves" and submerge.
Easing the sheets will temporarily aleviate the issue until appropriate measures can be taken to keep the boat on her feet.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by MartinR

I am not sure how many have done this, but I am sure all of them can do it. If you drop them from 3', all of them land on their feet.

Not all of them.... I tried it.

[KP44]

Many of us have flipped a hobie-cat (16 foot open boat. Like a dingy-cat that is fast and wild in a good breeze.) Or we have come close to flipping one.

Many of us have also swamped our dingy or even rolled our monohull dingy. But that doesn't mean our vessels are likely to be swamped or rolled.

It's easy to sit here and badmouth Cats. But the people I meet are happy with their Cats. The worst part seems to be the slamming when they go upwind. No one seems to worry about a capsize.

[css145hs]

Originally Posted by mikedefieslife

There are a few mentions of hobbie cats and cats racing. I can't see how they are useful in anyway whatsoever. It's like asking how many rear wheel drive cars crash, then including go-karts, and racing cars. Lets stick to cruising catamarans.

Has anyone worked out the static or even the dynamic stability of their cat? Is it even listed in the specs?

From what i've seen the ratio of centre of effort to beam size is not linear. So raise the COE by 1 unit and the beam must be increased in by figure much greater than 1. You can only go so wide, so I suppose it is easier for manufacturers to either add weight low, or reduce the rig height.

52' 11.5T loaded cat 130sqm of sail nearly 13:1 B/L, from multihulldynamics, 21.8kn and 36.7kn. The condo cats are a bit better, but not by much, from the ones I remember looking at.

[jmschmidt]

Good stuff from Cheechako and David M. I knew a guy who was told by a cat salesman that big sailing cats don’t flip they just slide sideways. WTF man!

I am greatly troubled by modern day sailing cat designs which have all sheets and other control lines led through a battery of jammers at a single winch near the helm. Not only that but most now have enormous water holding open pits forward of the saloon which they euphemistically call “forward cockpits” or worse, “lanais.”

Either of these features would be extremely dangerous in open ocean swells in a real blow. When looking at these boats at boat shows, I’ve jokingly remarked to brokers that if I found myself in that situation I would wear a machete on my hip to chop the main sheet at the first sign of a round up or round down. In a panic tangled lines don't run through jammers worth diddly. What color was that main sheet again?

If you have a choice hope for a round down which will tear the boom off the mast and kill the mainsail thus, hopefully, letting the boat right itself. Happened like that to a friend of mine off the coast of Ecuador at night.

The truth is if found myself on one of these boats I wouldn’t go outside of helicopter range in warm water only and I would always wear my offshore vest and tracker.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by jmschmidt

Good stuff from Cheechako and David M. I knew a guy who was told by a cat salesman that big sailing cats don’t flip they just slide sideways.

There is very likely at least some truth to that.
However it’s all in what you prefer.

[catman]

You really have to know your catamarans limitations and always over estimate the wind and its effect on your catamaran.
It is true that you can not always FEEL the effects of the wind, so you must always reduce sail before it is to late.
Its better to be slow and safe than fast and flipped.
Catman

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by jmschmidt

......Not only that but most now have enormous water holding open pits forward of the saloon which they euphemistically call “forward cockpits” or worse, “lanais.”

Most? One brand out of the "big 3" (and the smallest of them) is most?

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by jmschmidt

If you have a choice hope for a round down which will tear the boom off the mast and kill the mainsail thus, hopefully, letting the boat right itself. Happened like that to a friend of mine off the coast of Ecuador at night.

The truth is if found myself on one of these boats I wouldn’t go outside of helicopter range in warm water only and I would always wear my offshore vest and tracker.

Round down? Do you mean an accidental gybe?

Generally accidental gybes on catamarans are non-events. Because of the wide traveller, relatively little mainsheet is out, so the boom can't go far. On our boat it barely makes the centreline.

Have you ever actually sailed on a cat? It doesn't sound like it.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by smj

No, as stated above it was a conversation I had with a Lloyd’s of London insurance rep.

My first inclination was that was probably about right, but further thinking: A mono sinks if holed. =Total loss.
A cat flips but a mono doesn't. = more theoretical risk to the insurance company...as a flipped cat is still likely a total loss.

Just thinking out loud! Either way, I'm thinking the difference isn't huge.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

My first inclination was that was probably about right, but further thinking: A mono sinks if holed. =Total loss.
A cat flips but a mono doesn't. = more theoretical risk to the insurance company...as a flipped cat is still likely a total loss.

Just thinking out loud! Either way, I'm thinking the difference isn't huge.

Except that mono's do roll over. And in smaller seas than cat's. And while that might not be a total loss it could be. Anyway there will almost certainly be serious damage, not only to the boat but also the crew, which still might result in abandonment.

And there are many ways besides holing that can sink a mono. Lost rudders, cooling system failures, through hull failures, etc etc. A combination of a leaky hatch and a blocked bilge pump can sink a mono while it's in a marina berth.

Comparing premiums suggest most insurers find the risk to be similar. Our premium is less than 1% of insured value.

[nortonscove]

Originally Posted by smj

Statistically you have about the same chance of flipping a cruising cat as you do sinking a cruising monohull, pick your poison.

Where can we find that stat?

[gonesail]

Originally Posted by smj

Statistically you have about the same chance of flipping a cruising cat as you do sinking a cruising monohull, pick your poison.

please share your source for that

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by jmschmidt

Good stuff from Cheechako and David M. I knew a guy who was told by a cat salesman that big sailing cats don’t flip they just slide sideways. WTF man!

I am greatly troubled by modern day sailing cat designs which have all sheets and other control lines led through a battery of jammers at a single winch near the helm. Not only that but most now have enormous water holding open pits forward of the saloon which they euphemistically call “forward cockpits” or worse, “lanais.”

Either of these features would be extremely dangerous in open ocean swells in a real blow. When looking at these boats at boat shows, I’ve jokingly remarked to brokers that if I found myself in that situation I would wear a machete on my hip to chop the main sheet at the first sign of a round up or round down. In a panic tangled lines don't run through jammers worth diddly. What color was that main sheet again?

If you have a choice hope for a round down which will tear the boom off the mast and kill the mainsail thus, hopefully, letting the boat right itself. Happened like that to a friend of mine off the coast of Ecuador at night.

The truth is if found myself on one of these boats I wouldn’t go outside of helicopter range in warm water only and I would always wear my offshore vest and tracker.

Am I reading this right that clutches are a safety risk? I'm guessing you won't have a lot of folks under 90 with you on that one, and darn if I don't sail on a mono with clutches on every line so not sure what that has to do with cats specifically?