Help me make a weight budget for a trimaran

[longjonsilver]

Originally Posted by Mike Banks

Just go ahead and put everything you need aboard.

You can then discard those things you discover you do not need. I put all sorts of things aboard my trimaran--and it still out-sailed most monos. The important thing is to have ESSENTIAL equipment where it is easily retrieved or operated. It is amazing just how much junk you need on a cruising boat, Fenders, warps, dan buoys, life-rings, outboards,

Just go ahead and stash the lot. Keep the heavy anchors too. You will sleep better when that anchor-watch alarm stays off.

Most cruising boats are designed to take a good load. Avoid buying racing or a high-performance trimaran and trying to turn it into a cruising tri. It will be cramped, low in the water and probably slower than a beamier tri with substantial storage in the amas.

Before you build a trimaran, think about resale value.

i know that putting all sorts of junk aboard my trimaran will result in too much stuff that i don't need and the tri low in the water. Weight is a safety issue and safety is a priority for me - a tri is the worlds biggest liferaft - even upside down - and unlike a mono with a ballast keel, will not sink. Hence the safety of the tri. Safety is also a matter of speed. When you have speed in a sailboat, ( just like a car), you can avoid danger by careful weather routing and outrunning many storms. Hence i want only the essentials and a few carefully chosen luxuries aboard. That is why i have chosen a flute and an acoustic guitar. i could take a saxophone and an electric guitar with amp, but the weight would be far more. This is the reason for this thread. The stuff is in my garage or my office and i am weighing it and estimating weight so that i will know how big a tri to purchase. Building a boat is OUT. Been there done that. Never again. i walked away from a deal on a tri that required too much work. i'm only looking at ones almost ready to go. i am also not looking at racing tri's as cramped accommodations are not something that my wife would want, and thanks for the reminder that such a racing tri, when loaded down, might be slower than a cruising tri. Good to know.

i am primarily looking for trimarans by Chris White or John Marples. There is a CC 40 for sale in Maine that won't be available for viewing until next summer. i have been in contact with the owner, but i question whether she would be able to carry all the stuff that i want. i missed out on a nice CC44FC. i really like the idea of epoxy/wood composite. Maybe i will fly to Puerto Rico this next summer to look at Juniper - Chris White's old boat. But i like the idea of a shallow draft with centerboard and kick up rudder from John Marples work. Hammerhead would be perfect, but far too much money. So i wait and continue to search the internet.

i don't want to turn this into an anchoring thread. i have very opinionated, pigheaded ideas on anchoring from reading several books and many threads on anchoring

[Comix Bay]

Originally Posted by longjonsilver

Fishing gear (so far) 18 lbs
2 full size bicycles with locks 44 lbs
12 volt Seafrost Refrigeration 105 lbs
8 life vests 7 lbs
Skin diving gear inc weight belt 10 lbs
Kitchen tools 46 lbs
2 harnesses 1 tether 4
Diesel Water Vapor Trap 1
Spinnaker and ATN Tacker 33
Bosuns Chair 4
Boat Hooks (2) 2
Spool 5/8 line 15
Spool 1/2 line and anchor hook 9
Sea Anchor and Flare kit 3
Wet skins (2) 2
Food at 5.5 lbs/person/day from DM Street from Gardner 20 days 2 people 220 lbs

i'm up to 2229 lbs with 5/16 chain and 2301 lbs with 3/8 chain

i have not included Jordan Series Drogue, Mast Ladder, Anchor rode, Flags, Radar reflector, Radar, Chart plotter, laptop, Solar panels, wind generator, BBQ and a bunch of other stuff that i will think of as time goes along.

I notice that you have not included weight for a holding system for your grey and black tanks??


Ted VA7YQQ

[Cavalier MK2]

For cruising tris don't forget to look at Cross tris and Tristars. They tend to have the main hull beam for a cruising load. Epoxy composite and foam glass versions can be found at substantial savings.

Phil is quite right about the water plane area being the defining factor on how a tri takes its load. Some designs have a deeper but narrow main hull for performance with the designed displacement. If loaded past that they will immerse faster than a beamy boat. The Marples CC designs brush up against this territory so get some study plans and look around.

My Nicol does well in this area because it has a beamy main hull and amas that were designed to be more deeply immersed at rest than is current to help carry the load. A tri that was designed to have the amas just kiss the surface at rest doesn't have this benefit. Those amas don't contribute to the load waterplane area. Consequently it does tend to pass newer designs out cruising.

[Shrew]

Originally Posted by longjonsilver

Binoculars 2 lbs

Seriously, if you need to calculate for a 2lb pair of binoculars, this is probably not an appropriate boat to be Long distance cruising in.

[donradcliffe]

I'd worry more about getting the water tankage up to 100 gallons or putting in a watermaker than how much Binoculars weigh.

I weighed what I took off the boat when my wife and I finished our circumnavigation and sold it. I calculated the difference between dry weight and as sailed at 7200 lbs. Tools, spares, and repair supplies were 250 lbs, wife's lotions and potions were 150.

[catsketcher]

That is really interesting Don. Do you have the full list? I have never weighed my cruising gear.

cheers

Phil

[longjonsilver]

Thanks a bunch guys!

Originally Posted by Comix Bay

I notice that you have not included weight for a holding system for your grey and black tanks??

That is because i plan on using a composting toilet.

Originally Posted by Cavalier MK2

For cruising tris don't forget to look at Cross tris and Tristars. They tend to have the main hull beam for a cruising load. Epoxy composite and foam glass versions can be found at substantial savings.

Phil is quite right about the water plane area being the defining factor on how a tri takes its load. Some designs have a deeper but narrow main hull for performance with the designed displacement. If loaded past that they will immerse faster than a beamy boat. The Marples CC designs brush up against this territory so get some study plans and look around.

My Nicol does well in this area because it has a beamy main hull and amas that were designed to be more deeply immersed at rest than is current to help carry the load. A tri that was designed to have the amas just kiss the surface at rest doesn't have this benefit. Those amas don't contribute to the load waterplane area. Consequently it does tend to pass newer designs out cruising.

Thanks Cavalier, i had decided against the Cross and Horstmann tris because of their cavernous interiors, but perhaps i should reconsider. i think i really want a epoxy/wood composite rather than a foam glass boat. Water intrusion and delamination of the sandwich scares me.

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

I'd worry more about getting the water tankage up to 100 gallons or putting in a watermaker than how much Binoculars weigh.

I weighed what I took off the boat when my wife and I finished our circumnavigation and sold it. I calculated the difference between dry weight and as sailed at 7200 lbs. Tools, spares, and repair supplies were 250 lbs, wife's lotions and potions were 150.

i plan on using 5 gallon plastic jugs for water as an initial step and perhaps add a water tank down the line. Thanks for the estimate of 250 lbs for the tools, spares and repair supplies.

i got an email from John Marples. He states that

Originally Posted by John Marples

The "dry" weight is the basic boat with all gear aboard to make it work (including engine, anchors, sails, etc.), without fuel, water, provisions, toys, personal gear and crew.

So i guess i can eliminate the anchors and sails. As i plan on installing dry Wallas stove heat, i can eliminate the propane tanks too.

[Cavalier MK2]

Space is fine, can make life at anchor nicer. Filling up the space with stuff? Now that is scary!

[longjonsilver]

Well, many designs have all kinds of berths. Perhaps that is great when coastwise cruising for an overnighter but 6 people on a 40 something footer for a long cruise? NO! And any design that i would consider would be easy to singlehand because either i would be alone or i wouldn't want to call the wife on deck when she is sleeping. Crew that i don't know well? Absolutely not! i can't see myself ever advertizing for crew. To be stuck on a boat with an obnoxious or bossy or motormouth person, hey, i would prefer to stay ashore.

As for adding things like binoculars? Well there is an old saying that is applicable in this case. "Take care of the pennies, and the dollars will take care of themselves". Weight is a big issue for me because if anyone takes the time to read John Marples' book, Chris White's book or McMullen's book one can't but notice that there is a big emphasis on the safety of lightweight sailing. A heavy boat can't rise up enough to let a big wave go under, but takes green water on deck. That is not something i want. i'll be back later this week with an updated list of equipment and weight thanks to all of you and John Marples for clarifying the issue of dry and loaded weight. But i think already that the CC40 will be too small with its 2600 lb capacity and i will need to wait for a good CC44 to come up for sale, or buy Juniper, which i bet will carry 6000 lbs.

jon

[catsketcher]

Jon, you could be over thinking this.

People have sailed around the world on Searunner 31s, Nimbles, Lodestars, Wanderers and lots of other tris with less payload than the CC40. Anyone can cruise on a CC40, you just have to reduce the stuff you take. We are a pretty flexible species. Other people have done it so you can too.

I know it is exciting to spend lots of time on spreadsheets and asking designers and others about boats but in the end you can ask a simple question - "Have others done this safely?" Cruising a CC40 gets a definite yes to this. Don't get hung up on trying to get the perfect boat - it doesn't exist.

Do what you want but you only NEED far less than the CC40 can take. Everything else is a choice you make because you are being inflexible. That is your right of course but there is no need to buy bigger (the CC40 is BIG) when you can change your desires.

cheers

Phil

[longjonsilver]

Originally Posted by catsketcher

Jon, you could be over thinking this.

People have sailed around the world on Searunner 31s, Nimbles, Lodestars, Wanderers and lots of other tris with less payload than the CC40. Anyone can cruise on a CC40, you just have to reduce the stuff you take. We are a pretty flexible species. Other people have done it so you can too.

I know it is exciting to spend lots of time on spreadsheets and asking designers and others about boats but in the end you can ask a simple question - "Have others done this safely?" Cruising a CC40 gets a definite yes to this. Don't get hung up on trying to get the perfect boat - it doesn't exist.

Do what you want but you only NEED far less than the CC40 can take. Everything else is a choice you make because you are being inflexible. That is your right of course but there is no need to buy bigger (the CC40 is BIG) when you can change your desires.

cheers

Phil

Phil: i know that there are different styles of operation, just as there are different personalities of people. i tried to build a ferrocement boat back in the 70's and failed, not because of lack or time, interest or money, but rather because of failure to plan and consider my options. i would have had far more fun buying a 25'er on a trailer and a truck to haul it around and sailed here and there as time allowed. Woulda coulda shoulda. i plan on considering all my options this time around. The CC40 is not even available for viewing until mid August as the owner is using her to demonstrate a finished product to a wooden boatbuilding class he is teaching next summer. So what should i do in the meantime? There are no (to my knowledge) CC44's on the market right now - i missed one because the yacht borker did not list it as a trimaran but rather a CC44 Fast Cruiser. i have all the screenshots of the ad tho, and that is what i know about the CC44 - just about as much as the CC40 now for sale privately. i am studying to fill in the gaps in my cruising knowledge - lites and shapes for navigation, Open CPN, general navigation problems, and the problems for the International Certificate of Competence. Failure to plan is a plan to fail. imho.

And yes, there is no perfect yacht, and i am not trying to find one. Everyone i see has something that i don't like, and probably more faults that i can't see. Juniper is a large fast platform, but she doesn't achieve the upwind performance that i would like due to the ketch rig and the low aspect keel. In addition, she is a lot of boat to haul out and maintain, and suffers from a deep draught - 4'6" from not having a centerboard.
The CC40 has an extreme center cockpit - so far forward that she has the mast in the cockpit. i am not sure that i like that, and i am not sure that i like the galley and the table in the stern cabin. Juniper has an interior arrangement that i don't like as well. i won't be able to tell about these things until i actually use her for a period of time. Accommodations are of tertiary importance however, sailing ability and safety are of primary and secondary importance.
Which brings up the CC44 that i saw for sale, SV Sunner. With the after cabin having just a double berth, and the galley and the table in the main cabin, she has a more conventional arrangement. She looks to have double bunk beds in the forward cabin - not good at sea, but great with kids in port. Her center cockpit is farther aft than that of the CC40. The only thing that i dont like is no seat for the navigator - same problem with Juniper - the navigator must stand in the passageway.
No perfect boat, but the CC 44 has come as close as any that i have seen, alas she has been sold.
blessings
jon

[Cavalier MK2]

Well in the meantime you should look at those other designs for a comparison, you might be surprised. Bunks don't need to be filled with people to be useful. A close by resting place for that guitar and flute to pick them up at a moments notice versus drag out? A place to unroll a full size chart. A quick spot to set things while loading supplies etc... A conventional layout has a lot going for it too.

[catsketcher]

When I was designing my 40ft cruising trimaran, my best friend at the time said, "Phil, you should get a cat". I punched him in the arm for daring to suggest sacrilege - we were tri guys and always would be.

But one night afterwards, I was trying to squeeze the interior in the tri around and just did some quick sketches of a cat's interior - no bridgedeck cabin, nice clearance. Straight away I could draw a boat with more than twice the room of the tri that had taken me years to design. A few months later I started building Kankama - our 38ft cat. That was 20 years ago and I still think she is a great boat.

I love tris, but if you are unsatisfied with the interior have a look at a daggerboard cruising cat from the 80s to 90s. They often have good clearance and are more in the style of the CC44. You will have lots more to choose from and they will all be epoxy or foam glass. I don't have a special seat for the navigator but I do have a massive cabin (I put one on eventually) that I navigate from with lounges all around. You can't beat the interior of a nice cat when compared to a tri. Sorry to all my tri friends out there but when you have to put a centreboard case and cockpit into the hull as well as an interior things get crowded.

So consider a nice Lock Crowther, Grainger, Kelsall cat. Your worries about interior space can be soothed by going two hulls.

Last cruise - in 2014 - I saw a CC tri (40 or 44) off Keppel. I kayaked over and got invited aboard. It was a nice boat but I found it much smaller than my shorter cat, and with a less divided layout. I am always surprised with how much smaller and pokey (sorry Cav!) the tris I used to think were huge (Impala 38 and Spoon Bay 10.6 used to be mammoth) are when I visit them now. My cat goes as fast as any equivalent tri and sails as well to windward or downwind and we have lots of spare (and private) space so that I don't get cranky with guests when they stay for a week.

I like tris, I really do, (I owned two and built a 38ft Newick) but if finding the right one gets hard, consider a nice cat too.

cheers

Phil

[Cavalier MK2]

I'll have to take the speed with a grain of salt Phil. We tend to catch the cats. Not bad for a old Vagabond. Plus it is easier to see what the limits are with a tri making the available performance easier to use safely. You were recently posting on another thread about how you felt pushing large cats was unsafe in a racing environment. You talk about making hay here but also grass about the danger of hitting the gas with cats.

[catsketcher]

Cav - We should have a race! Meet in the middle of the Pacific one day. Just like tris, cats have a wide range of sailing abilities. On a coastal passage, Kankama has been passed by only three sailing boats in about 12000 miles - so she can sail well. Well enough for me. Great thing is I can throttle back and she trots along at an average of 7.5 - 8 knots all day. I have averaged 10 knots for 16 hours under autopilot, twice.

As for racing - I don't care how many hulls a multi has. I got my jitters about racing multis on the Twiggy. The cat has never given me cause for concern.

Remember, I love tris, the OP was finding it hard to find what he wanted in tris. I was the same 20 years ago and found my perfect tri - in a cat. Maybe he will too.

Keep flying the Hedley Nicol flag. (I once got into trouble in the old days when I spent the last of the roll of film on a 45ft Voyager that were were passing. It meant we had no film left for whale breach 20 minutes later. Still I have seen plenty of whales since and no other Nicol Voyagers. On top of this my perfect boat used to be a Wanderer Mk 1 moored across the bay). Some tris are awesome, and so are some cats.

cheers

Phil