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Old 12-12-2019, 22:13   #31
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Re: Helia 44 abandoned off Puerto Rico

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Originally Posted by Bean Counter View Post
You can take a horse to water .....etc.
How exactly do the manufacturers take the horses to the water, then? Might there be a lot of sailors out there that in fact aren't aware of this issue?
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Old 12-12-2019, 22:53   #32
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Re: Helia 44 abandoned off Puerto Rico

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How exactly do the manufacturers take the horses to the water, then? Might there be a lot of sailors out there that in fact aren't aware of this issue?

I understand the advisory notice was sent to those particular boats that may be at risk of a faulty hatch. Just like a vehicle recall - it only applies to some not all. Whether the owner chooses to remedy it or not - that is like trying to make the horse drink.
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Old 12-12-2019, 23:08   #33
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Re: Helia 44 abandoned off Puerto Rico

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I understand the advisory notice was sent to those particular boats that may be at risk of a faulty hatch. Just like a vehicle recall - it only applies to some not all. Whether the owner chooses to remedy it or not - that is like trying to make the horse drink.
Yes, I saw someone had received an email (in a CF thread). But, and I'm just wildly guessing here, I think that (for example) FP doesn't have an updated list of everyone currently owning one of their yachts.

I checked the FP and Goiot webs and couldn't find any mention of any "verification campaigns" there.

Escape hatch Cristal 49.42 – GOIOT-SYSTEMS
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Old 13-12-2019, 03:31   #34
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Re: Helia 44 abandoned off Puerto Rico

We've got a set of tiny screws and aluminium profiles from Lagoon to fix the hatches as a recall action, even we bought second hand.

Notification came from the broker, thanks for theat.
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Old 13-12-2019, 06:08   #35
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Re: Helia 44 abandoned off Puerto Rico

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We've got a set of tiny screws and aluminium profiles from Lagoon to fix the hatches as a recall action, even we bought second hand.

Notification came from the broker, thanks for theat.


I think Lagoon has done a better job reaching out to folks. I never officially heard from FP about the recall. Gioit doesn’t have a list of owners of the hatches, so I get it is harder for them, but they should take out ads to warn owners. I spoke with a Catana owner recently who had never heard from Catana before losing a hatch last year during a passage.
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Old 13-12-2019, 06:10   #36
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Re: Helia 44 abandoned off Puerto Rico

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That would be nice. Sadly there are some who take great delight in seeing any kind of misfortune happen to a multihull and can't wait to post their 0.5 cents worth.


You’re right. So far this thread is productive which is great.

44c- since you built your awesome cat, what/where is your escape hatch?

I feel like having that large of a hatch near waterline makes it really susceptible to a wave. I almost feel that I’d rather swim out from under a capsized cat than have a vulnerable opening..
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Old 13-12-2019, 06:19   #37
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Re: Helia 44 abandoned off Puerto Rico

This looks like a much more rugged design for an escape hatch.
https://www.rutgerson.se/escape-hatc...oEUaV7QdAA8hKA
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Old 13-12-2019, 06:22   #38
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Re: Helia 44 abandoned off Puerto Rico

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You’re right. So far this thread is productive which is great.

44c- since you built your awesome cat, what/where is your escape hatch?

I feel like having that large of a hatch near waterline makes it really susceptible to a wave. I almost feel that I’d rather swim out from under a capsized cat than have a vulnerable opening..
Another question to add to that is: how many have actually capsized AND the crew used the escape hatch?
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Old 13-12-2019, 06:34   #39
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Re: Helia 44 abandoned off Puerto Rico

Is the boat in PR a Helia? The CG describes it as 36' and the port lights are different from the other unfortunate boat. Or was that a design change?
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Old 13-12-2019, 06:42   #40
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Re: Helia 44 abandoned off Puerto Rico

I just figured out the answer to my question. The PR boat was a H44 Evolution which did have the design change.
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Old 13-12-2019, 14:05   #41
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Re: Helia 44 abandoned off Puerto Rico

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Another question to add to that is: how many have actually capsized AND the crew used the escape hatch?
I don't think typical cruising cats capsize often but apparently it does happen. I was able to find one report on using Google.

https://www.soundingsonline.com/.amp...e-proves-fatal

In that report, a lagoon 380 flips in 45' breaking seas and the crew uses the escape hatch.

More often it is smaller cats or higher performance boats. There was a report of a capsize of a Chris White design fitted with breakable glass like the Lagoon and the crew could not break the glass.

https://www.chriswhitedesigns.com/25...urned-boat/amp
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Old 13-12-2019, 17:29   #42
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Re: Helia 44 abandoned off Puerto Rico

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Humm.... the water pressure on the escape hatch is hundreds of pounds, sheeting plastic and duct tape would be worthless. It only possible to seal the hatch from the outside due to the pressure. There was a thread on this in the last 30 days about a research ship which diverted 100s of miles to aid a Lagoon that lost their hatch. The Lagoon had been unable to seal the hatch from the inside with plywood, the research ship came up with a very clever solution externally.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ut-216834.html


I'm glad you are not at risk, but there are hundreds probably thousands of boats that are. They should all take steps to secure their hatches.
Wondering how you came up with the "hundreds of pounds". In part my answer was based on a story my Dad told me about his experience. He was a Chief Petty Officer on a destroyer in WWII that was hit by a torpedo. I have little doubt that made a whole much larger than an escape hatch on any cat. He and several other men too two mattresses from bunks and put them over the hole; from the inside. While it did not completely stop the water coming in the boat it did slow it down enough that a more complete repair was able to reduce the amount coming in to a very manageable amount. Even using gaffers tape around the edges would reduce the amount of water coming in the boat; and several iterations would greatly reduce the amount of water. No question it would be better to use four lines on a tarp/what ever on the outside of the boat; problem with that is that in a really bad seaway that might not be an option. I should also note that once the boat's aft quarter was below the water surface it should be easy to go inside the hull and affix a patch and then pump the water out.

I do thing it is better to apply the fix before hand. But I also am convinced a lot of things happen that need to be dealt with on the spot. It is fairly common to hear of a hole in the hull of a boat; and the standard jury rig is to first slow water entering through the hole and then apply a better patch.
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Old 13-12-2019, 17:40   #43
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Re: Helia 44 abandoned off Puerto Rico

but i thought catamarans didn't sink
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Old 13-12-2019, 19:45   #44
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Re: Helia 44 abandoned off Puerto Rico

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but i thought catamarans didn't sink

YAT*


Why do certain people feel the need to keep doing this in the multihull threads?





(*Yet another troll)
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Old 13-12-2019, 20:40   #45
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Re: Helia 44 abandoned off Puerto Rico

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Wondering how you came up with the "hundreds of pounds". In part my answer was based on a story my Dad told me about his experience. He was a Chief Petty Officer on a destroyer in WWII that was hit by a torpedo. I have little doubt that made a whole much larger than an escape hatch on any cat. He and several other men too two mattresses from bunks and put them over the hole; from the inside. While it did not completely stop the water coming in the boat it did slow it down enough that a more complete repair was able to reduce the amount coming in to a very manageable amount. Even using gaffers tape around the edges would reduce the amount of water coming in the boat; and several iterations would greatly reduce the amount of water. No question it would be better to use four lines on a tarp/what ever on the outside of the boat; problem with that is that in a really bad seaway that might not be an option. I should also note that once the boat's aft quarter was below the water surface it should be easy to go inside the hull and affix a patch and then pump the water out.



I do thing it is better to apply the fix before hand. But I also am convinced a lot of things happen that need to be dealt with on the spot. It is fairly common to hear of a hole in the hull of a boat; and the standard jury rig is to first slow water entering through the hole and then apply a better patch.


I “came up” with hundreds pounds from basic hydrostatics. I generalized to the case of an escape hatch being 20x20 inches (400 sq in in area) and it being underwater where the top edge is at the surface and the bottom being 20 inches below, so just covered. In the center of the hatch there would be about 1 psi of pressure. Over the entire hatch it would therefore be 400lbs.

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/t...ce-d_1767.html

You can say, well the hatch wouldn’t be completely covered, well look at photos of escape hatches underway or with a significant sea, yes it is completely covered.

I had an exchange with the skipper of the boat that was lost off Africa. He tried to stop the water pouring into his boat with just about everything, cushions, pillows, boards, anything he could lay his hands on. No luck. It is a 2 ft x 2ft hole in the side of the boat.

I had a exchange with a skipper that accidentally left his hatch open in the San Blas and then went sailing. He managed to run the boat aground to keep it above water, but it took a dozen people two days to get the hatch resealed and the boat pumped out while it sat in 4 feet of water.

The bottom line is if the hatch fails completely you probably not going to be able to fix it. Certainly not with plastic sheeting and duct tape or a tarp or just about anything else. If you had a previously constructed plywood or fiberglass covering, with a rubber seal and a way to secure it and apply pressure to engage the seal with the cover applied from the outside. This could work and it what I pointed you to in the other thread.

If you did all that in advance, great. But why not just fix the root problem and go sailing instead?

As for four lines and a tarp, perhaps you should look at where an escape hatch is on most cats, typically under the bridge deck with the mini keels below. Just how do you propose to secure this huge hole with a tarp???

I know about this problem because it happened to me 500 miles offshore. Fortunately the lens had not left the boat. But it was very very hard to secure a pane of acrylic because there is nothing to grab onto. The only solution we found was to go outside the boat to pound the lens back into the frame, then devise a solution to secure it. Since then I have secured the hatch so the lens can not come out, I no longer worry about my escape hatches

My guess is the boat off Puerto Rico lost the lens completely and they had no chance. There are very few other things except perhaps ripping the saildrive off the boat that can cause catastrophic flooding you can’t stop. Look at the photo, there is no bow damage. Their boat is the same model as mine.

Again these hatches are a subject of a recall and owners should be aware of that and take appropriate action to correct the defect.
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