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Old 18-12-2019, 19:19   #151
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Re: Helia 44 abandoned off Puerto Rico

Dale, the French boats he won't deliver trans-ocean are Beneteaus (sp?) and it stems from delivering an Oceanis 47 footer from France to Oz. The hull worked so much that bulkheads were coming adrift, and it scared him (and he had done a solo RTW race with plenty of adventures). He has other work offered, so why take on one that bothers him?

The Catalina was a new 315 (IIRC), being commissioned at the MBTBC marina hardstand for delivery. The owner showed up, went aboard and claimed that the headroom had reduced enough that he bumped where he previously could stand straight. So, that was second hand info, but pretty fresh (I was there when he climbed down the ladder, fuming). I did not investigate further, but it did make an impression on me. This event was around 15 years ago. I think you know that I'm not a Catalina basher in general, and that I think their quality level is superior to most other mass produced boats; please don't take this anecdote as anything more than, well, an anecdote, and certainly not a general slur upon Butler's successful career as a builder or his boats.

In truth, most plastic boats deform somewhat when standing on their keels, and many develop dimples if the Acro props are too tight or are not placed on bulkhead supported portions of the hull. Most skilled yard workers will do some sounding of the hull before placing the props, just to avoid this problem. Having such a substantial apparent deformation in a new boat would have surely got a big response from me!

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Old 18-12-2019, 19:28   #152
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Re: Helia 44 abandoned off Puerto Rico

Remember, that most times if a monohull capsizes, it does not stay afloat. Its lead keel takes it straight to the bottom of the ocean!~
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Old 18-12-2019, 19:43   #153
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Re: Helia 44 abandoned off Puerto Rico

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Dale, the French boats he won't deliver trans-ocean are Beneteaus (sp?) and it stems from delivering an Oceanis 47 footer from France to Oz. The hull worked so much that bulkheads were coming adrift, and it scared him (and he had done a solo RTW race with plenty of adventures). He has other work offered, so why take on one that bothers him?

The Catalina was a new 315 (IIRC), being commissioned at the MBTBC marina hardstand for delivery. The owner showed up, went aboard and claimed that the headroom had reduced enough that he bumped where he previously could stand straight. So, that was second hand info, but pretty fresh (I was there when he climbed down the ladder, fuming). I did not investigate further, but it did make an impression on me. This event was around 15 years ago. I think you know that I'm not a Catalina basher in general, and that I think their quality level is superior to most other mass produced boats; please don't take this anecdote as anything more than, well, an anecdote, and certainly not a general slur upon Butler's successful career as a builder or his boats.

In truth, most plastic boats deform somewhat when standing on their keels, and many develop dimples if the Acro props are too tight or are not placed on bulkhead supported portions of the hull. Most skilled yard workers will do some sounding of the hull before placing the props, just to avoid this problem. Having such a substantial apparent deformation in a new boat would have surely got a big response from me!

Jim
Jim , I have to question quite abit of this.

Just had a friend finish a 8 year circumnavigation on his Beneteau 473, and hes off again, never had a bulk head issue. I have another friend cross the Atlantic from Europe also on a 473 and hes heading back again in the near future, he had no problems. Remember Mark J, his very used bene went around the world and some without these issues. This is quite common, theres lots of Benes going around the world.

I was just in the Trinidad boat yards, 100's of boats including Beneteaus, I'm a very curious guy , I check boats out, I walked around both main yards inspecting all kinds of boats up close, I just do that, I did not see one boat deforming (dimples )from the stands not one, I did see an admiral 40 cat that cant sit on its mini keels, and quite a few spade rudders with worn bearings, yes I go up and wobble them

I know you don't bash Catalinas, I know it comes across that I'm defending my "brand" but I'm not.

The proof is easy to see, these production boats are safely crossing oceans without falling apart, I'm skeptical of your friends word, people exaggerate for many reasons, including non based prejudice, I've just seen to many Beneteaus successfully cross oceans, I personally know of 6 that crossed the Indian ocean to South Africa , no problems other than the norm.

Theres 4 big beneteaus here in shelter bay right now about to cross the canal, they all sailed here....I just dont get it , the hearsay is unproven, at least to me. I used to believe this stuff but my no experience beliefs have been proven wrong, over and over by time and experience.

Once again, no disrespect intended.
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Old 18-12-2019, 19:53   #154
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Re: Helia 44 abandoned off Puerto Rico

Sorry Jim, I should say I do agree that most stands are positioned where bulk heads are BUT so? How does that mean the boats are unseaworthy etc? Heavier isnt neccesarily better, im not seeing hulls failing apart.

I've recently seen a old tayana planed down to the foam and I can assure you I'd have a modern bene hull anyday over what I saw, literally thousands of voids between glass and foam with diesel leaking out of the core from a corroded black iron tank , somehow the diesel got into the core from the inside.
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Old 18-12-2019, 19:57   #155
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Re: Helia 44 abandoned off Puerto Rico

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Remember, that most times if a monohull capsizes, it does not stay afloat. Its lead keel takes it straight to the bottom of the ocean!~
Seriously!
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Old 18-12-2019, 20:43   #156
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Helia 44 abandoned off Puerto Rico

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Originally Posted by Lightwave99 View Post
Remember, that most times if a monohull capsizes, it does not stay afloat. Its lead keel takes it straight to the bottom of the ocean!~

Another bit of internet lore that is mostly myth.

I will concede that every monohull would be worse off with a 2x2 foot hole near the water line where a hatch used to be...
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Old 18-12-2019, 22:08   #157
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Re: Helia 44 abandoned off Puerto Rico

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Sorry Jim, I should say I do agree that most stands are positioned where bulk heads are BUT so? How does that mean the boats are unseaworthy etc? Heavier isnt neccesarily better, im not seeing hulls failing apart.
Dale, I don't think I've said these boats can't successfully cross oceans... we both know that this is shown regularly... no argument here.

And the fact that some 47 foot bennies have made it does not mean that at least one did not in fact flex excessively in heavy weather. For that matter, lots of boats do circumnavigations without ever encountering really severe weather. So one set of anecdotal evidence is refuted by another, and generalizing from one individual boat to another is risky... the Blue Pearl comes to mind. This sort of argument is not very productive or informative

Now as to deforming whilst setting upon the keel: I don't think one could detect this whilst wandering about a boat yard. Even in the alleged case of the missing headroom, we're talking about an inch or so... hardly noticeable from the outside. I know that some boats flex a bunch when you load up the backstay and some acquaintances have commented that their cabinets/doors don't work right when on the hard (and not folks with Bennies or Catalinas, just glass boats in general). And the lack of dimpling in the yard you were wandering just compliments the skills of the yard workers!

So, to summarize, I don't say that modern mass produced yachts are incapable of crossing oceans or making excellent cruising boats. I do say that there are other boats that are more robust in design and execution. I don't believe that all big Lagoons require factory repair after an Atlantic crossing, but I do believe that some Lagoons have had design issues that required aftermarket intervention (I've witnessed this myself). And I surely believe that folks tend to praise the boats that they own, sometimes without much wisdom or experience, and that belief renders a lot of opinions suspect in my mind. I include myself in that group of folks who love our boats, BTW, but of course my claims for Insatiable II are all true!

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 18-12-2019, 23:49   #158
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Re: Helia 44 abandoned off Puerto Rico

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This event was around 15 years ago.
Jim
This is one of the bigger challenges, as well. Let's say there was a systemic production problem with one brand of sailboats 15 years ago.

This is relevant, obviously, if you want to buy used sailboats from that period.

But, maybe not relevant at all, if you want to buy a new sailboat manufactured by that same brand today.

So, when bashing, the temporal consideration is often missing

And, Jim, I'm absolutely not saying your post was a bashing post! Anecdotes might clearly be factually correct (even more likely when they are first hand). The problem is faulty generalizing.
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Old 19-12-2019, 00:23   #159
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Re: Helia 44 abandoned off Puerto Rico

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Remember, that most times if a monohull capsizes, it does not stay afloat. Its lead keel takes it straight to the bottom of the ocean!~
Ah, remember, normally one's first post is to introduce oneself to the rest of the forum members, not to throw crap where it is neither required or appreciated.
So far this thread has remained fairly free of bias and I for one hope it remains so.
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Old 19-12-2019, 01:14   #160
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Re: Helia 44 abandoned off Puerto Rico

It doesn't matter how well you design and fabricate the vessel, If you start cutting holes in a perfectly sound hull just above the water line to install a shonky escape hatch you've undone all your good work.
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Old 19-12-2019, 01:43   #161
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Re: Helia 44 abandoned off Puerto Rico

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It doesn't matter how well you design and fabricate the vessel, If you start cutting holes in a perfectly sound hull just above the water line to install a shonky escape hatch you've undone all your good work.
Exactly
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Old 19-12-2019, 03:50   #162
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Re: Helia 44 abandoned off Puerto Rico

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It doesn't matter how well you design and fabricate the vessel, If you start cutting holes in a perfectly sound hull just above the water line to install a shonky escape hatch you've undone all your good work.
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Originally Posted by Chotu View Post
Exactly
It's an easier preposition to agree on: design and fabricate well, use only non-shonky escape hatches.
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Old 19-12-2019, 05:17   #163
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Re: Helia 44 abandoned off Puerto Rico

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Dale, I don't think I've said these boats can't successfully cross oceans... we both know that this is shown regularly... no argument here.

And the fact that some 47 foot bennies have made it does not mean that at least one did not in fact flex excessively in heavy weather. For that matter, lots of boats do circumnavigations without ever encountering really severe weather. So one set of anecdotal evidence is refuted by another, and generalizing from one individual boat to another is risky... the Blue Pearl comes to mind. This sort of argument is not very productive or informative

Now as to deforming whilst setting upon the keel: I don't think one could detect this whilst wandering about a boat yard. Even in the alleged case of the missing headroom, we're talking about an inch or so... hardly noticeable from the outside. I know that some boats flex a bunch when you load up the backstay and some acquaintances have commented that their cabinets/doors don't work right when on the hard (and not folks with Bennies or Catalinas, just glass boats in general). And the lack of dimpling in the yard you were wandering just compliments the skills of the yard workers!

So, to summarize, I don't say that modern mass produced yachts are incapable of crossing oceans or making excellent cruising boats. I do say that there are other boats that are more robust in design and execution. I don't believe that all big Lagoons require factory repair after an Atlantic crossing, but I do believe that some Lagoons have had design issues that required aftermarket intervention (I've witnessed this myself). And I surely believe that folks tend to praise the boats that they own, sometimes without much wisdom or experience, and that belief renders a lot of opinions suspect in my mind. I include myself in that group of folks who love our boats, BTW, but of course my claims for Insatiable II are all true!

Cheers,

Jim
Jim, all boats flex to some degree ,this includes large ships but thats not what's been asserted here, the many claims or accusations towards production boats is much more than some flexing, you know that. The claims are they are structurally inadequate for anything but coastal leisure.

And of course theres boats that are built more robustly than many production boats, no one is claiming anything different but once again that's not what this is about, it's the constant dribble about production boats not being built robust enough for Bluewater and my point is that's just BS, the proof is in the fact that they are crossing oceans regularly and this cant be dismissed with "many boats cross oceans and dont see bad weather", Jim they arent just all lucky, they are out there in real life doing it, there is no greater proof regarding there capability than this. Many Beneteau firsts have Ocean raced in challenging conditions and , to say production boats dont see adverse conditions is another rubbish. As mentioned Jim, I've quite a few friends that have now circumnavigated in the likes of Beneteaus you just cant dismiss them all, they aren't just idiots that got lucky and never see bad weather, they've done it.

In regards to me defending my choice, that's just a dismissive accusation, my choice was made after seeing so many production boats crossing oceans while I was extensively cruising on my 1984 older boat, it made me realize most of my biases regarding these boats were in fact unsupported, they were adopted after reading stuff on the likes of Cf, they weren't based on what was actually happening.

A side note, out of the four boats that I personally knew that have been lost at sea due to structural problems, not one was a production boat.

Production boats have a fantastic record that gets ignored and replaced with unsupported predjutice.

I'll leave it at that, my forehead is getting sore..lol.
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Old 19-12-2019, 06:54   #164
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Re: Helia 44 abandoned off Puerto Rico

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Does this data cover any significant number of accidents on trans-oceanic passages?
Our area of responsibility when I was at Barbers Point (Hawaii) went from Hawaii to American Samoa to the south, Federated States of Micronesia to the west (the US still provides SAR service to the FSM), half way to Alaska (picked up by Air Station Kodiak for the rest of the way) and half way back to the mainland (picked up by Air Station Sacramento the rest of the way), 12.2 million square miles of ocean we were always proud to say. So yes, quite a bit of trans oceanic there and that's just the Pacific side.
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Old 19-12-2019, 07:02   #165
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Re: Helia 44 abandoned off Puerto Rico

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rob, these are interesting statistics, but they don't really address the question being discussed. Having structural defects that require factory remediation is not related to reportable deaths or accidents. That is, such defects would not show up in the CG stats UNLESS there were injuries, deaths or collisions, and I think we can all agree that untabbed bulkheads or sagging mast steps, while worthy of repair, do not necessarily result in reportable events.

I don't have the info to comment on the alleged failures in the big Lagoon cats. Sounds kinda unlikely, perhaps exaggerated to some degree, but I don't see the CG numbers as proof of their non-existence.

And of course, we too see numerous mass production boats in distant anchorages, and agree with Dale's observations. We've also seen some having structural issues dealt with in boatyards, and heard a few sailors complaining about hull flexibility causing furniture displacement and excessive noise under harsher sea conditions. One delivery skipper we know well refuses to take some models of French mass production vessels on trans-oceanic deliveries, having had some frights on previous trips.

As for us, we chose to buy a one-off that better met our criteria rather than a production boat that didn't. It's called voting with your dollars!

Jim
Jim,
You're not wrong, as I mentioned previously I think discussions about known issues like the Lagoon mast step are spot on and they should be held to account for them. My point was squarely aimed at a certain poster making patently absurd allegations that all boats from Lagoon and FP suffered structural issues or as you mentioned that every single one of two entire model fleets were somehow secretly sailed back across the Atlantic after first crossing the Atlantic because of structural failures and yet nary a mention here or anywhere else despite the widespread attention that the other failures you mentioned garnered.
If tens of thousands of boats built in the last decade had serious structural issues you'd have to see at least a few mishaps attributable to that. Either that or the "structural issues" weren't really very serious to start with or again inexplicably tens of thousands of boats were made with serious structural issues but they caught every one of them and fixed them before they caused a mishap. If the latter were true it definitely would suck from a usability perspective, but not from a safety standpoint as alleged.
And at the end of the day, I just want to put out a pitch for using the data that's freely available for at least a reality check against any outrageous claims from an anonymous online poster who provides no data to back up their allegations except their alleged experiences.
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