Helia 44 abandoned off Puerto Rico

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by malbert73

I agree with your perspective. To clarify, I don’t think it’s as much a structural issue as numerous small corners cut during production. Like cheaper brass through hulls and seacocks, and escape hatch weakness like those detailed in this forum.

However there have also been larger issues like the beneteau rudder issue which was a major structural underdesign where the rudder post was supported by plexus glued plywood box

I agree that heavy does not mean stronger. There aren’t absolutes here.

Theres been some design issues at times but let's put things in to perspective, how many boats have the likes of Beneteau pumped out? what percentage do you think have suffered rudder failures? I would suggest it's a very very tiny percentage.

Just recieved a email from a friend, with a photo of him and his partner downstairs on his Beneteau 43 having a gin and tonic while heaved to in the Mozambique channel with a storm raging over head, boat never collapsed they are now in Richard's Bay South Africa.

Walk around boat yards and look for the failures of these boats, you'll find very few.. I'm certainly not seeing major work being done on these boats, mostly I see old boats getting major jobs done like my mates tayana that has diesel in the core (black iron tank failure ,and diesel found it's way into the hull ) and rotten bulkheads.

[daletournier]

Dont get me wrong, I'm not suggesting the likes of Beneteaus or Lagoons are perfect, my point is they dont deserve the crap posted about them on these forums ,such as they are unfit for bluewater, it's just not true, they prove this over and over again by crossing oceans, how many more have to cross oceans before people stop saying they cant or shouldn't?

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by Valiente

Of course i try to avoid a personalized discussion.
However,some of the design and quality control issues of major serial manufacturers are serious. if that makes them suitable or not to go off-shore under serious weather is subjetive.
Examples that come to my mind:
- escape hatch recall
- mast base recall
- whole mast recall
- bulkhead tabbing issues.
- 50ft Cat engine compartment not watertight, vessel lost. Sales documentation, brochures.. modified by manufacturer afterwards.
- 45ft model with structural problems after heavy pounding.

if you follow forums, blogs, etc....most serious ocean going sailors perform many reinforcements on underdeck plates....even bulkheads.

so, i lean toward the statement that ex-factory, some (or many) mass produced models are lacking as all weather, ocean going vessels, and need further work (not just aftermarket equipping)!

And.....it seems to be a common practise among the big manufacturers, to use their dealers not just as claim managers, but also as legal firewall in between the owners and factory in case of legal claims.

Those are my perceptions of the state of business, even if i intend to sail the world on one of those boats . Your mileage may vary though.
-

First off thank you for that well reasoned discussion with examples of real issues that have actually happened in our universe. I agree that production boat makers have a lot of room to improve on quality control and engineering, for example the mast issue just seems unconscionable to me as an engineer.
However it's also important to note that even Toyota, the paragon of quality control and reliability, has had major recall issues for both third party components (a la Goiot hatches) and their own engineering and assembly issues. A more relevant example perhaps are general aviation aircraft, both small prop planes and business jets since they're also a high cost, low production item. Despite exhaustive engineering and FAA approval processes, I doubt there's an aircraft out there more than a couple years old without mandatory airworthiness directives. These are required fixes that often must be completed before you're allowed to continue to fly the aircraft, and if the plane's out of warranty they have to be done on your (often substantial) dime as the owner. If we can't get perfection at point of initial delivery in that world, it's probably pretty unreasonable to expect it in a sailboat.
Finally, it's important to understand that human brains have a hard time instinctively differentiating between absolute numbers and percentages. Chris White is a great designer that probably not even the most crotchety rock thrower here would accuse of cutting corners or designing crap...his boats are basically the opposite of the "production boat" that's being criticized in this thread. But on a percentage basis his designs have a massively bigger dismasting problem than Lagoon. The difference is that there are a lot more Lagoons out there, so the absolute numbers are going to be bigger and we'll hear more stories and thence without stopping to think of it our subconscious determines "Lagoon has a huge demasting problem". It's a natural reptilian brain thing we all have going on, but at least being aware of it allows us to counter the effect a little.

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Dont get me wrong, I'm not suggesting the likes of Beneteaus or Lagoons are perfect, my point is they dont deserve the crap posted about them on these forums ,such as they are unfit for bluewater, it's just not true, they prove this over and over again by crossing oceans, how many more have to cross oceans before people stop saying they cant or shouldn't?

Agree!!

It would be nice if there was more public knowledge (and pushback) about some cost cutting measures however. More robust hatches and bronze through hulls, for example, would probably be less than 3K extra in cost per boat and if buyers knew the trade offs in these small factors perhaps they wouldn’t be so price point oriented. Because buyers end up having to remediate this stuff eventually anyway

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by malbert73

Agree!!

It would be nice if there was more public knowledge (and pushback) about some cost cutting measures however. More robust hatches and bronze through hulls, for example, would probably be less than 3K extra in cost per boat and if buyers knew the trade offs in these small factors perhaps they wouldn’t be so price point oriented. Because buyers end up having to remediate this stuff eventually anyway

I'm not a fan of Lewmar hatches, imo they are no where near as good as the Bomar I had on my old boat BUT I think you'll find that most boats ,production or not have them these days. I think the new Amels have them?, not sure , but the 54 did, it's not just production boats (what ever that is).

The throughhull thing is unforgivable.

Literally 10 mins ago I had a tour of a 49ft aluminium custom built french boat. This thing is built like a tank, very functional, go anywhere. My Catalina 470 has crossed 3 oceans, when I hit Mexico, its
circumnavigated, with zero major problems, its seen gales ,rounded Cape Good hope in 50+kts , so one must ask does a boat need to be built tank like, as the one next to me is or is the build of my boat more than adequate?

Currently in Shelter bay marina Panama, due to canal fees doubling at the start of next year theres many boats going through now. I can 100% tell you that there is lots of production catamarans heading into the Pacific right now, as well as Beneteaus etc, and they'll do fine.

As Redneck said "BS needs to be called out" or ignorance just gets repeated over and over and influences people that dont know better.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

The escape hatches appear to be open, but cant tell anything about their condition otherwise.

Interesting how these wreck threads almost always degrade into a big fight. Why is that?

Hi Belize, I think debate is very productive as long as all remain civilized, which I think is happening here.

Personally I do push back, my main reason is often theres alot if misinfomation posted ie cats are dangerous etc.

As long as it's done with no malice I think people should speak up or the false narratives flourish, repeated over and over again. Lots of newbies rely on forums like this to learn, facts matter.

Btw, great time in San Blas, thanks for the help, the tablet chart thing worked awesomely.

[AllenRbrts]

As for the suitability of production boats for bluewater sailing, I can’t claim to be an expert because I’m not in the industry. I can state my boat has 20k+ bluewater miles. The boat has sailed the Med, crossed the Atlantic, sailed the complete Caribbean, been to Maine and done passages from the east coast to the Caribbean twice. I’m planning on taking the boat back to the Med this summer. Other than the escape hatch, which for me is solved, the boat has been great. I have lots of friends that also have had good bluewater experiences in other production cats as well.

As for the escape hatch, these are not a cheap part, they cost about $2k each and they have been used extensively. That said, they have a serious design flaw which needs to be addressed.

I don’t know if the escape hatch was the problem in this case, but other potential causes can be ruled out, saildrive ripped out or a collision. That kind of leaves escape hatches or a thru hull failure (of which any boat could have). Seems likely a thru hull failure could have been found and addressed before the boat got to a mayday state.

I don’t think this incident is an indictment of production cats being unsuitable for water sailing">blue water sailing, instead it either means that a factory recall should be taken very seriously or a thru hull failure can ruin your day.

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by AllenRbrts

As for the suitability of production boats for bluewater sailing, I can’t claim to be an expert because I’m not in the industry.

Just my humble opinion: I think there are too many experts (and "experts") regarding this anyway. What is needed is hard data and informed opinions based on this data. (Not too much of that going around either )

I think the CE system is a good thing. Nothing is perfect, obviously, but bettereing that would be a good way forward. The newest version became active 01/2016. Have to check what's happening next.

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

Just my humble opinion: I think there are too many experts (and "experts") regarding this anyway. What is needed is hard data and informed opinions based on this data. (Not too much of that going around either )

I think the CE system is a good thing. Nothing is perfect, obviously, but bettereing that would be a good way forward. The newest version became active 01/2016. Have to check what's happening next.

As I mentioned in previous posts, it turns out hard data does exist at least in the U.S. in the form of the Coast Guard accident reporting system, and it's certainly what informs my opinions especially since I did quite a bit of work populating data in that system as does everyone in the service.

The USCG summary of recreational boating accidents can be found at https://www.uscgboating.org/statisti...statistics.php More detailed information can also be obtained on that site if desired.

Interesting observations from the 2018 data (Table 5 page starting page 20): Out of 4145 accidents and 633 deaths, 37 accidents and 5 deaths occurred from hull failure on all recreational vessels. That's .9% (not .09 but .009) and .8% respectively. Among sailboats it's responsible for 0 accidents and deaths (Table 7 page 25) So right off the top, an assertion that there are entire fleets of boats or that all sailboats from two of world's largest manufacturers suffer from structural defects would appear to be unfounded based on hard data. When you add various equipment failures in there the numbers get slightly larger, but it's hard to differentiate if an engine failure is due to a manufacturing or design defect or the fact the oil wasn't changed for the past 10 years, and even if you add them all in they still represent a very small percentage of mishaps. In any event, excessively focusing on alleged structural defects when they account for a vanishingly small percentage of mishaps seems a questionable use of all our time really. As I indicated in previous posts, the hard data indicates that the vast majority of mishaps are caused by crew error.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

As I mentioned in previous posts, it turns out hard data does exist at least in the U.S. in the form of the Coast Guard accident reporting system, and it's certainly what informs my opinions especially since I did quite a bit of work populating data in that system as does everyone in the service.

The USCG summary of recreational boating accidents can be found at https://www.uscgboating.org/statisti...statistics.php More detailed information can also be obtained on that site if desired.

.....

Does this data cover any significant number of accidents on trans-oceanic passages?

[Brewgyver]

Rob, thank you for the CG stats link. Not that I couldn't have found it, but seeing it prompted using it.

I thought it was very interesting to look at the "Alcohol as a contributing factor" stats, page 26. I remember hearing BUI public service ads on the radio all summer, paid for by California Boating and Waterways. A quick look at page 26 shows that California has averaged only 4 boating deaths and only about 13 injuries per year, for the last five years, with "Alcohol as a contributing factor." Yes, I know, the number should be zero, but still...

On the bright side, I was very happy to read that there were 0 commercial boating deaths (from accidents) recorded in 2018. That number is actually hard to believe.

[capn_billl]

I'm glad, but not terribly surprised. There has been a big push for offshore safety. It appears to be finally paying off.

[Jim Cate]

Out of 4145 accidents and 633 deaths, 37 accidents and 5 deaths occurred from hull failure on all recreational vessels. That's .9% (not .09 but .009) and .8% respectively. Among sailboats it's responsible for 0 accidents and deaths (Table 7 page 25) So right off the top, an assertion that there are entire fleets of boats or that all sailboats from two of world's largest manufacturers suffer from structural defects would appear to be unfounded based on hard data.

rob, these are interesting statistics, but they don't really address the question being discussed. Having structural defects that require factory remediation is not related to reportable deaths or accidents. That is, such defects would not show up in the CG stats UNLESS there were injuries, deaths or collisions, and I think we can all agree that untabbed bulkheads or sagging mast steps, while worthy of repair, do not necessarily result in reportable events.

I don't have the info to comment on the alleged failures in the big Lagoon cats. Sounds kinda unlikely, perhaps exaggerated to some degree, but I don't see the CG numbers as proof of their non-existence.

And of course, we too see numerous mass production boats in distant anchorages, and agree with Dale's observations. We've also seen some having structural issues dealt with in boatyards, and heard a few sailors complaining about hull flexibility causing furniture displacement and excessive noise under harsher sea conditions. One delivery skipper we know well refuses to take some models of French mass production vessels on trans-oceanic deliveries, having had some frights on previous trips.

As for us, we chose to buy a one-off that better met our criteria rather than a production boat that didn't. It's called voting with your dollars!

Jim

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by daletournier

I'm not a fan of Lewmar hatches, imo they are no where near as good as the Bomar I had on my old boat BUT I think you'll find that most boats ,production or not have them these days. I think the new Amels have them?, not sure , but the 54 did, it's not just production boats (what ever that is).

The throughhull thing is unforgivable.

Literally 10 mins ago I had a tour of a 49ft aluminium custom built french boat. This thing is built like a tank, very functional, go anywhere. My Catalina 470 has crossed 3 oceans, when I hit Mexico, its
circumnavigated, with zero major problems, its seen gales ,rounded Cape Good hope in 50+kts , so one must ask does a boat need to be built tank like, as the one next to me is or is the build of my boat more than adequate?

Currently in Shelter bay marina Panama, due to canal fees doubling at the start of next year theres many boats going through now. I can 100% tell you that there is lots of production catamarans heading into the Pacific right now, as well as Beneteaus etc, and they'll do fine.

As Redneck said "BS needs to be called out" or ignorance just gets repeated over and over and influences people that dont know better.

I have always rated Catalina’s at higher end of build quality scale for mass production boats and the 470 had a lot of attention to detail. Was on the new 545 at the Annapolis boat show for kicks (wouldn’t consider 70+ foot air draft) and the apparent quality and attention to detail was much higher than most of the other boats at the show in my eye. I was on it at same time as Bob B from Latitudes and Attitudes and he was raving about it as well.

[daletournier]

Hi Jim, what French boats wont your friend deliver and why? not being argumentative, generally interested.

I hear people say "I know a guy that says this etc " but as I've stated before I've never experienced these problems with my own eyes and as you and Ann are I'm around boats every single day in different parts of the world, I dont see it ,why? I certainly look, I have a boat disease I talk to many boat owners about their boats.

No offense to Ann , she once said a friend told you both that he saw a Catalina on the hard once that flexed that much it altered the head room height and the cupboards would open as well as the doors", now as you know I recently slipped my Catalina, full water, full fuel and had no such issues, absolutely all doors ,floor boards etc were absolutely fine, no flexing, Ive since asked every Catalina owner I meet if he gets flexing on the hard and the answer I get is always no. I even put the question of flexing to the Catalina forum after my discussion with Ann, no one I've talked to has had first hand experience of this.

My point is I hear the hand me down heresay but never see it first hand.

No disrespect intended.