(heavy) overloaded Trimarans... where are the limits ?

[Skip JayR]

Originally Posted by tenchiki

...These numbers are usually very explicit (at least on the plans & specs) of multihulls, harder to find on monohulls.

Tks giving me orientation. Yes, something new to learn in the world of Trimarans.... :-) Nice... as I come from Monohull sailing I know the parameters. For Multihull it needs more "care taking" even in the segment of cruising boats. :-)

[nalinjay1974]

The owner of the Newick has all the original plans so I'm sure he would be able to tell you the exact maximum payload as well as the sail area. I know it has a wing mast and newish sails. The boat looks to be in excellent condition. I had a look myself a few months ago but it was too small for me. Top speed 24 knot so no slouch! I suspect it would be very sensitive to payload though.

As for the price, I guess it is up to a prospective buyer to make an offer and then see how the seller responds.

I know of one lucky trimaran owner who looked at a boat which was for sale for USD 80k and ended up buying it for USD 20k!

[indodream]

Hi Skip,
I am also a professional skipper on a larger monohull, full of amenities and ...things that constantly need to be maintained.
So the Idea is a simple trimaran, simple construction, simple rigging,simple maintaining, simple sailing, yet with some comfort ( fridge, some fresh water, a watermaker,a small gasoline generator?)
I have been reading and studying about the possibility to be "green" but I came to the conclusion that the only real possibility to be "green" is to reduce comfort, electricity and fuel consumption...
The trimaran i was going to buy was not in the market, it happened that i got to know the owners and at the beginning it seemed they wanted to sell, but maybe my high motivation to buy made them re-think and decided not to sell anymore! Really had a crush on that boat!

The file from Crossmultihulls i downloaded from his website one year ago,but now the website is being taken down. I tried to attach a PDF in here but does not work, if you send me a pm with you email i can send it to you, or if you tell me how to upload it i will be happy to share it with everybody.

Few and fewer people are going to buy a trimaran,mostly because lack of comfort and too expensive to stay in arinas. This is why we see boats on the market for years and the price almost don't drop. And the pictures still the same.
To me it means that they post pictures when the boat was in "his glory" for the last time, maybe few years before.
I personally try to avoid brokers, some are good indeed but many are not helping the seller nor the buyer in order to maximize their profit.
Another point is owners who do not need to sell...they put the boat in the market but are not really in need to sell the boat.
So mostly they just occupy space in the advertisement websites...

Is a hard research, let's see who is gonna be the first to buy one!

[Skip JayR]

Originally Posted by indodream

Is a hard research, let's see who is gonna be the first to buy one!

Imagine, we'd lived in times without Internet !!!

When I was professional skipper (in times without Internet) I did little bit consulting for owners... it was lots of driving around for looking boats...

No Smartphones, no video stream on youtube... and no emailing. No sales exposes receiving as PDF attachment. Damm*** slow Snailmail and fax mashines. - My God ! Did I live on another planet that time ??? Cant imagine it anymore...

I was one of the first using daily Internet since 1994. My girl friend that time she was South American and software developer came back alrady in 1991 from the data centre of the University in South Germany and laid a printed "something" front me. - I asked her: Whats that ? She just smiled and said: "Yeah... my South American friends do little bit hacking so they can use normal telephone lines... to send me messages cheaply." - And again and again she went to University and picked up the mails.

Time is running so quickly... where are gone 24 years ??

Anyhow... we can be lucky nowadays that - without huge travelling expenses we can check and filter out the worst boats from the good ones with some mouse clicks. And asking for help in such forums - Even can talk with owners/brokers via skype or voice over IP cost free around the globe... before we make the decision to book a ticket and fly over.

I'd like to say: Lucky times we live in to find a trimaran, isnt ? :-)

P.S.: But yes... boat selling is like car selling, so it feels. The owners like to polish their old rusty vehicles so they look shiney and expensively worthy. Feels very simiarly.... needs a good Naval Architect to do the survey and a good lawyer to keep on safe side. Black sheeps everywhere. :-)

[Skip JayR]

Originally Posted by nalinjay1974

TI know of one lucky trimaran owner who looked at a boat which was for sale for USD 80k and ended up buying it for USD 20k!

That sounds like a win in lottery. :-) Lucky man !

Shortly I had such an experience, yes... from 75 Thousand, down to 46 thousand and then down to 36 THousand. But the boat still was too expensive. I'd payed 28-29 Thousand by good will.

Bad times for owners who like to sell... steadily experiences of des-illusions. :-)

Just needs to be keen and stiff as buyer... I always say to an owner: You want sell me this "old boat" at a prize of I'd get half a new Porsche ??? Would anybody buy a POrsche, 30 years old at a prize of 70-80 Thousand ? Nobody would do so... just my "menthal exercise" to keep stiff! :-)

[Skip JayR]

Originally Posted by indodream

The trimaran i was going to buy was not in the market, it happened that i got to know the owners and at the beginning it seemed they wanted to sell, but maybe my high motivation to buy made them re-think and decided not to sell anymore! Really had a crush on that boat!

Indeed... if one as buyer expresses the "big desire for the sailing object", the owner becomes aware again his own love... Oh, I love my sweet boat so much, I still dream around to sail it again. Probably then the boat is sleeping another 5 years in the backyard being flaked full of dust and mudd.

So are humans.... very irrationally... full of emotions, driven by ego.

Keep searching !!! There are plenty of good Trimarans out there.

-------------

P.S.: Will send you a PM for the file.

[paxfish]

Originally Posted by Boatguy30

"Full load" is the top of the bottom paint level. Guess you're close to "full load" right now on that 28' cat.

Heh heh. Yep. There were 7 of us that day and a whole lotta beer. Here is what she looks like at rest:

[indodream]

Hi Skip,
Found the way to upload here the trimaran selection chart that i downloaded from Crossmultihulls.com while the site was still available.
I think is not protected by copyright, as it was possible to download for free from the website.
Hope it helps somehow.
Ciao

[pbmaise]

Originally Posted by Skip JayR

Welcome in the club, hm ? :-) How long you took for this Newick to find it ?

I suppose it depends lot on the right attitude (towards boats generally and "living on a boat" specifically). Some potentially owners who have lots of money dont think a lot about the details, as they have to invest their time in "money making". So they visit 2-3 boat shows... take tons of catalogues home and then make the decision and order the boat within some few meetings with the designer, so long it is not a single built project.

I have a different attitude towards this topic. I suppose it is because I was professional skipper... so you get a different perspective towards boats. Looking for "living on a boat" solution is similarly like to find the right architect for designing the only single house one want let build and live in till pension age. Its relevant to feel well and homely on board.

Third aspect (probably the most important) are the risks... most of us know (beside some naive folks) that "swimming homes" on high seas can be a "deadly traps"... so we have to think seriously about safety aspects first of all and more heavily compared to owners who do weekend sailing for leasure times.
I was involved too often in rescue missions (mostly deadly) seeing owners not caring enough about paying a high prize.

One thing is important as I see it: To make a start.

Probably one can build up a big database, with tons of information about boat types, boat building methods, different warfts etc. ...

I try to find here the balance of good compromise, otherwise I will search still in 10 years for the "perfect boat". This became clear for me over last months. The perfect boat doesnt exist.

Young people here can be very smart, even not having money and not knowing what comes next day... You know this video ? I wish I could have this naivity... and positivism.

In consequences I like to take two pairs of aspects in view:
(A) max. of safetyness (here I take the IMO/Solas standards as orientation) + seaworthyness
(B) a mix of "lower (puristic) comfort + good speed" (otherwise I'd better take a catamaran).

...as I think in 2-3 years I like to sell the boat for a bigger one... and then proably in 10-15 years after being an old pensionist going back and downsize again. *laugh* (knocking on wood)



yeah, such things can happen... best is to have 4-5 boats parallel as option. It is more the psychological aspect behind.
Then te broker or owner feels, that you do not have pressure and that you do not want his boat urgently. So he has to come along with, e.g. a good prize offer to make it attractively for you.

As an example: On Friday I got the email answer of a "broker". A real idiot of sales man. (Sorry, I know not all brokers are yearks.) - He resists to overhand my request to the owner... because he (the broker) likes to pull maximum money / profit (commission rate) out of the selling. So he just pretended to speak in the name of the owner saying manipulating a "fake email" showing it to me and says: "Look here, the owner expects a good prize, so he will not sell it now and want wait till beginning 2016." In other words: The broker likes to push me into action, the prize up and set me under pressure to make the deal now (heavily overprized). - What a fool, isnt ! - Bad habit of seriously business.

Lots of show making and wrong expectations. I know that this boat will loose every month up to 5,000 dollars in value if the owner waits longer. So is the market now. We have entered into the foiling era... and soon we will see foil-assisted and fully foiling cruising Trimarans. Then the "old boats" will become quicker worthless as some owners wish nowadays.

Some brokers have bad knowledge about Trimarans and this very specifically market, so it feels for me. They do not care a lot, e.g. not delivering newest photos, no details about the boat history. Some brokers even do not know the sail area. - Quick money making guys, mostly. But thats a thematic on its own. :-)

So lets come back to the thematic...



Sounds interesting... Do you have a link ? Is it available as excel calculation sheet or as table (PDF or image download) ?



Yes, that goes through my mind, heavily...

As I have a living + working on the boat, I need lots of "electric energy" to run computers, file server, Internet connection. I cannot afford a "black out". That would ruin my business and me quickly.

Roughly I can sail (and repair/maintain) 14 days per month, the other half I have to work full time on the boat (cultural journalistic work + radio productions).

I have started a thread about this question to get some ideas...
How to calculate a Solar system for a Trimaran ?

I like to have a boat as a kind of "eco friendly one", as much as possible. I dont like the idea of a skinky diesel engine/generator. Thats 20th century. Sailors should not only talk "green" more come into action to "live green".

With a pre-calculation roughly you can get a fully installation at around 3.5-4,000 Euros (pls calculate by currency exchange on your own). Thats the result for now. Yet not calculated a pure "electro motor" (e.g. as exists by OceanVolt (Finland) or Torqueedo (Germany). Another homework on my long, long list. :-)

About the weight I posted a provocative question:
What to do that Amas (Outriggers) aren't "dead space" for a Tri ?

Yet I am not clear about a good solution how to trim the boat with higher weight by battery blocks.

As I use a boat (probably in the size of 35-40 foot) alone, I can compensate it little bit NOT having 2-3 other crew members on board. Only day-sailing for little bit socializing, which is important. But it wont become a "family boat" with a bunch of 3-4 people steadily.

So a Trimaran with regular berth for 4-6 people can handle the bigger battery block more easily, I think. The question more is: "Where" ?



Thats why I like Trimarans... I come from monohull sailing... there the boats became more and more complicated since the 90th... heavily overloaded with lots of stuff on board. I dont like it.

More stuff on board, more work it is...

Trimarans are sensitive because of "overweight", so these boat type forces one to keep an eye onto "simplicity". Indeed it helps to keep self control.

A good video being remembered about the "essence of sailing" is this...

Too quickly we fall into the trap being spoilt in mind by all the consumption goodies we get offered from everywhere. Happens to me, too. Great video to get motivated by others...

Good luck with finding another Newick ! "Down under" its little bit more easy to find Trimarans while I have to search (from my office desk in North Europe) for 3-hull boats like for the needle in the haystack.

What about a Crowther or a Grainger ? These boats are very well known in Australia/New Zealand.

I realize this is an old thread. However, I am going through a refit and covering many of the same issues.

The "deadly trap" as you call it is largely due to facts it has taken me many years to come to terms with.

#1 Quite simply, while it is possible to place a big racing rig on top of a big multihull, it isn't a good idea if the purpose of the vessel isn't racing. A multihull intended to sail short handed in high seas should be equipped with a modest easily handled sail plan.
...This makes the vessel more seaworthy for several reasons.
......The owner is able to afford maintenance better.
......Adverse conditions are less likely to result in a demasting.
......Sails are easier to reef and stow.
......Owners plan easier routes and mostly downwind.

#2 I disagree regarding the diesel. A well planned engine room especially if equipped with an Walker Air-Sep does not stink. That diesel, and all the spares carried, are essential if demasted.

#3 Designers who compensate for an expected overloaded cruising vessel by placing a big rig on it, are attempting to satisfy customers who want their cake and eat it too. Yes, when brand new some multihulls can indeed make windward progress.

What you really consider is where you are going. Sailing among a few islands a few hour a day is entirely different from crossing the Pacific.

Can a cruising couple in their 70s with no crew safely manage a vessel traveling at 20+ knots 24/7 across the Pacific?

That was the situation the former owners of my vessel found themselves. Despite the fact they could make windage, they refused to open the mainsail past the third reef since slamming into large waves at high speed wasn't exactly comfortable nor safe. The word they used was terrifying.

Eventually they demasted after several failed attempts to reach Hawaii upwind from the Marshals.

Clearly limits had been exceeded on my vessel, and that limit was exceeded at the drawing table.

Currently, I am depowering my vessel and going from 2690 ft2 down to 800 ft2.
(Before considering spinnaker.)

I also am planning to go to Hawaii. However, unlike the former owners that failed despite the massive rig, I have accepted the fact I would never reach Hawaii from the South Pacific. So I am first headed to Japan. From Japan NE Trades will assist.

Will I go slow? Yes.

800 ft2 of canvas in 10 knots of wind produces just 11.6 HP drive.

Where as the original rig full open at 10 knots produced 39 HP.

That doesn't seem like much so compare drive at 20 knots.

800 ft2 at 20 knots = 32 hp
2690 ft2 at 20 knots = 107 hp**

However, that assumes no reefing for the big rig. Likely, anyone sailing my vessel would have reefed before reaching 20 knots.

[pbmaise]

Further, when planning big passages, a few months of extra food, two watermakers, and 1000 gallons of diesel is not overloading.

Instead it is accepting the fact big multihulls are best suited for casual cruising sailors to go cruising.

Let the racing sailors go racing aboard their hightech trimarans.

I would rather play the piano and be on autopilot.

Someone once called my vessel the world's most boring sailboat.

What a compliment!

[SV DestinyAscen]

Originally Posted by pbmaise

Further, when planning big passages, a few months of extra food, two watermakers, and 1000 gallons of diesel is not overloading.

Instead it is accepting the fact big multihulls are best suited for casual cruising sailors to go cruising.

Let the racing sailors go racing aboard their hightech trimarans.

I would rather play the piano and be on autopilot.

Someone once called my vessel the world's most boring sailboat.

What a compliment!

Love your attitude! My question has always been, if you love sailing - what's the rush to get off the boat?