Good cat, bad cat…?

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by boatman61

.. there was a company in the UK that built GRP Tiki's back in the 80's to early 90's, I owned one, and another competed in a Transat back in the 80's.

I believe this was Wharram's own yard in Cornwall and was managed by Andy Smith now of Boatworks in the Philippines.

[double u]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

Huh? None of those boats are mine...

...so your Wharram knowledge stems from the internet?
& all those vids of people & their Wharram are critically dealing with the shortcomings of the boats?

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by double u

...so your Wharram knowledge stems from the internet?

My Wharram knowledge stems from a life spent at sea, both personally and professionally, on many many many different types of boats, wharrams included, from dinghies to coastal boats, live aboard ocean cruisers, wooden classics to full carbon race boats, monos to multis, sailing superyachts to high speed motor yachts capable of 40 and 50kn plus, and a lot more that I probably forgot too. So comments about experience and knowledge are laughable to me...

As I said, I like all types of boats, and try not to be biased, judging different types of boats by their respective merits.

Originally Posted by double u

...& all those vids of people & their Wharram are critically dealing with the shortcomings of the boats?

^^^ I don't think I ever said that.

I'd happily write a list of negative points too if the OP is interested.

All boats have their pluses and minuses. And price and ongoing costs are relevant too.

But as I have mentioned in other related threads (because you always start the same negative rant), lumping all Wharrams into the same experience that you had on your 34ft model of 1960s vintage design (a Tangaroa MKI - James’ first design for which he drew Self-building Plans in 1965) and that was an open boat with no deck shelter during a circumnavigation in the 1980s doesn't exactly provide an unbiased view either.

Whilst I salute your achievement, that sounds somewhat miserable to me and I wouldn't particularly recommend it, especially to a new cruiser.

Nor do I particularly reccomend Wharrams in that size range as live aboard ocean cruisers. Yes the boats can do it, but as you mention they have many shortcomings (many of which are reduced or resolved in the larger models).

Note that my earlier post in this thread suggests that even the Tiki 38 is probably too small for the OP's situation.

But on the plus side even you mention multiple days of 190nm+ runs - that's averaging 8kn - and the Tangaroa is only about 28ft LWL if I recall correctly. Quite impressive in the 1980s.

Also I think that your experience on a 1960's vintage design, in the 1980s, is just simply no longer fully representative of either modern Wharram sailing, modern Cat sailing in general, or even modern Monohull sailing for that matter. Much has changed since the 1960s and the 1980s.

You can even find Wharrams these days with full composite standing rigging (to which they are particularly well suited with the spreaderless wingsail/square top rig), North sails, Code 0s, retractable bowsprits, etc, etc.

Finally I remember you raved about the performance of your Elan 410 too, and I agree it's a great boat.

But, until I posted all the specs it seems that you conveniently omitted that it is basically a racing boat with an interior when comparing it to many of the cruising boats on this forum... (Spade Rudder, Fin keel with bulb, 2m+ draft, S.A./Disp. 20.52, Bal./Disp. 33.48, Disp./Length. 161.14, etc, etc).

So I'm sorry but I don't think that you are exactly an unbiased and trusted source yourself.

[double u]

no offence intended, jmh2002! I just thought your's was another one of those somewhat "passionate" Wharram posts. A few more comments though:
our RTW in the W. was by no means "miserable"! On the contrary: in view of our background (2 youngsters in their early/mid 20s, never been on saltwater, never built a boat, everything learned from books & a sailing course on "Pirat" dingies in a "billabong" of the Danube) we got tremendous satisfaction out of our Wharram, it was a great adventure of a lifetime, building her near Vienna & circumnavigating her (an adventure that in these days of internet & GPS cannot be had any more! & while our 2 & 1/3 rtw that followed were absolutely great too, the spirit of "adventure" of the Wharram trip was unparalleled for us)
Of course Wharrams have evolved a good bit from ours in the 70ies - the difference in comfort to a run-of-the-mill monohull has remained the same, because these have evolved too since the 70/80ies (& btw: despite visiting many fellow cruisers on their boats during our 1st rtw I don' recall that we ever had the impression that any of them was less comfortable than our Tangaroa.) & I stand by my opinion, then as now: for the same effort in time/labour/etc. there are many more suitable boats for a tradewind rtw than a Wharram. & If one has to go up to a loa>50' for a concept to become suitable - what more proof do you need?
Of course I am not an unbiased source, "untrustworthy"-implying I am lying...?
@Elan 410: "racing boat" is absolutely ridiculous. She was fully fitted out, warm water heater, 350l water tank, 150l fuel tank, 2 heads,...included, very easy on the helm & the windvane, great course stability. "performance charter-boat" if you will (there are a lot very comparable boats of her 2011 vintage, Gran Soleil, First, Jeanneau,). & I don't think I "raved" about her performance, just basically: show me a Multihull for the same money & payload - & then let's compare the performance.

[Alueva]

Thanks for all the info, folks!
I can imagine that wharram’s book would be a cracker of a good read 🤩
Will also check out the sail mag article 👍🏽
GRP Wharrams? I didn’t know they even existed.

The more I study boats and cruising, the more I dive into the mission of finding the “perfect” boat, I realise it’s all about balance and good compromise. Is there such a thing as the perfect boat? I doubt it. No boat is going to tick ALL the boxes, there just are way too many variables, aspects and considerations. I guess being clear on budget for the initial purchase price and then for the annual running and maintenance cost is probably the best place to start. Buying a boat is one thing and comparatively easy, but the upkeep is another thing all together. And at this stage on our journey to becoming a live aboard yachtie We have no clue how much it would cost to run and maintain a catamaran of 46ft!!!
So, that’s our starting point: running and maintenance cost.
Any advice, input or expertise very welcome
Thanks heaps

[Nani Kai]

[QUOTE=Alueva;3452691]That’s a fair question: what’s the right size? We are a patchwork family, we need room for us two oldies and four teenagers (and plenty of surfboards). The kids will be coming and going, most likely in a three months on and off rhythm.]

Originally we were looking to buy a Leopard 44 but wound up buying our Leopard 39 instead. We are very happy with that choice. We have three adult children who visit us onboard from time to time. Only once did we have all three on board at the same time. 4 cabins on the Leopard 39 gives everyone a berth. 2 heads are plenty. The 39 works well with our family. On a 44 or larger cat it is not unusual to have 4 heads. With 4 heads you can turn one into a laundry room if you start doing serious cruising which leaves you and the admiral one head and two for your guests.

As for "room for surfboards". Regardless of the size boat you purchase you will always want more room. You will definitely have more storage options on a larger boat.

[I was also thinking by maximising length we would increase speed, stability and safety.]

Reasonable assumptions. We chartered Leopard and Lagoon 44's several times prior to purchasing our L39. The bigger boats were more stable and faster. Both of these attributes contribute to safety. It's worthwhile noting that "faster" when talking about large, wide production cruising cats is relative. 6-8kts is typical on smaller cats, 10-12kts on bigger ones under the right conditions and captain's experience. YMMV.

[I wonder what the difference is in running costs between a 40ft and a 46ft catamaran?]

Significant. EVERYTHING will cost more: purchase price, insurance, maintenance, slip fees, haul out, gear replacement, running rigging, standing rigging, fuel (bigger engines), winches, blocks, ground tackle (bigger anchors, chain, rode), sails.....ad infinitum. When something breaks, needs repair or upkeep it will almost always cost you more on a bigger boat.

It's also important to consider how you will use the boat. If you're cruising the East Coast of the US en route to seasonal cruising in the Caribbean, being able to transit the ICW can be highly desirable. A S/V with mast height that exceeds 65' will eliminate that possibility on major stretches of the ICW. Which eliminates many cats over 40'.

A larger, heavier, wider boat will also require a bigger machine to haul it out when repairs are needed. A boat of 40' or less will find many more boat yards capable of haul out than a larger vessel, at less expense. While you might not think that too important in your pre-purchase stage, when you're out there cruising and you need an important repair done it can be unsettling to find no one near you can get your boat out of the water. No big deal if all you want to do is freshen your bottom paint. But if you have to replace a through hull fitting, it might mean you have to go out to sea for some distance to get there. In a boat taking on water.

My suggestion is to charter, charter, charter various boats first. Or crew for someone else. We did both and were much better informed on what was important to us in terms of comfort, space, handling, layout, visibility from the helm, protection from weather while at the helm, engine room access, etc.

Weighing all these variables and asking ourselves the same questions you posit we opted for a smaller boat.

Hope this helps. Have fun finding your perfect vessel. Aloha.

[Alueva]

Hi Nani Kai,
Thank you for some fabulous insights, super helpful.

Thanks also to you, jmh2002, I find your viewpoints most valuable and all the links you have provided very helpful.

Thanks, Double U, for sharing your vast experience with us. Much respect for your achievements on your first circumnavigation

And I always love a good banter, chaps

[Smooth Cruiser]

Good luck working it all out - enjoy the journey! As you say (paraphrasing) every boat is a compromise and you need to work out what works best for you and your style of cruising / living.

If you want a simple, performance oriented multi without a lot of the extras of the production boats - extras mostly targeting the charter market like extra heads etc - then I would suggest a few other designs as well to look at which may offer a bit more volume than a Wharram while retaining a lot of the simplicity. These are (in no particular order):

Pescott - the Whitehaven models are great, light fast and simple.

Oram - plenty of great boats here, the 44' version is great for a potential long term / long distance cruiser, again light, fast simple.

Schionning - A wider range here but some are nice simple well built boats, many of the newer ones are becoming a bit complex and costly but still some good options to be found.

The bigger the boat the more expansive everything gets - and quickly. Personally I would say around 44 feet is as big as you would want to look at. At that size with a good boat one person can manage almost everything, but any bigger and the effort required goes up considerably (sailing with spinnakers, raising anchor if the winch dies, reefing the main etc etc). For a couple I think a 37-38 foot cat is ideal.

Check out clubs that do WAGS sailing near you, or multihull focussed clubs and go along and get some experience on different multis to work out what works for you.

[Tupaia]

Low tech vs high tech.

Size does matter a "modern" (I use the term loosely) cat larger than 40ft will require a fit crew and or powered winches for raising the main. Above 45ft this becomes almost mandatory.

In the case of a Wharram the sails are divided into smaller more manageable units that enable manual operation in virtually all sizes.

So a 46ft Wharram is not the same as a 46ft Lagoon or FP.

[double u]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

Low tech vs high tech.

Size does matter a "modern" (I use the term loosely) cat larger than 40ft will require a fit crew and or powered winches for raising the main. Above 45ft this becomes almost mandatory.

In the case of a Wharram the sails are divided into smaller more manageable units that enable manual operation in virtually all sizes.

So a 46ft Wharram is not the same as a 46ft Lagoon or FP.

the divided sail area of the Wharram will be considerably more expensive than the same area divided into only 2 sails, & marina prices will be the same for all 46' cats (the number of "unavoidable" marinas on the coconut milkrun has shot up in the last 20 years e.g. for a Panama Canal transit), not to speak of the much more difficult maneuvring of the Wharram in the Marina (very difficult to fit 2 diesels + shafts or saildrives)

[double u]

Originally Posted by Alueva

Hi Nani Kai,
Thank you for some fabulous insights, super helpful.

Thanks also to you, jmh2002, I find your viewpoints most valuable and all the links you have provided very helpful.

Thanks, Double U, for sharing your vast experience with us. Much respect for your achievements on your first circumnavigation

And I always love a good banter, chaps

of course my experience of different boats in no way equals jmh2002's, even with a good 110.000 miles (lost count), as basically I know only 3 different boats. But these 3 I know (better "knew",...alas, the care of time...) extremely well.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by double u

... not to speak of the much more difficult maneuvring of the Wharram in the Marina (very difficult to fit 2 diesels + shafts or saildrives)

Most of the larger Wharrams have twin props of various configurations (shafts, outboards, electric pod drives, etc) so manoeuvring is similar to other catamarans. But most of them are also retractable too for much lower drag under sail.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

Low tech vs high tech.

Size does matter a "modern" (I use the term loosely) cat larger than 40ft will require a fit crew and or powered winches for raising the main. Above 45ft this becomes almost mandatory.

In the case of a Wharram the sails are divided into smaller more manageable units that enable manual operation in virtually all sizes.

So a 46ft Wharram is not the same as a 46ft Lagoon or FP.

Here's a video of raising and lowering the 50m2 Foresail (the forward mainsail in this case, because of the schooner rig) on the Pahi 63, by one person, without winches.

This is a 'Wharram WingSail' - a simplified variant of the square top mainsail we see these days. But Wharram designed it back in the 80s. (https://www.wharram.com/articles/how...m-wingsail-rig)

Maybe it's interesting for some people.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=qNGh91p3iZY

[Fore and Aft]

Alueva the easiest answer about the running costs between a 40 foot cat and 46 cat would be to ring some marinas and boatyards where you are thinking of keeping the cat and ask for prices. Then look at a Whitworths (Australian marine store) catalogue for things like rope, antifoul, pulleys, anchors, chain etc. You will be buying everything in large sizes, which means large dollars.
Cheers