Frustrated Shopper

[FerrariSailing]

Queensland is full of catamarans, prices are low as is the Aussie dollar.
There are plenty for sail around $200K AUD.
I got a 46ft performance Schionning cat for 250AUD.
We have cruised the superb Queensland coast for the last 5 winters in her, then it’s back home to NZ for the summer.
Best thing I ever did

[Stu Jackson]

Thank you for that. So well said.

Originally Posted by theDangerz

No, you're not just venting. It doesn't exist (at least with the rules you've put in place).

Sorry to sound harsh, but as an outsider looking in... it sounds like you're just not ready to go.

If you were buying a house your realtor would have fired you the first day out looking... If you cant afford a house in the neighborhood you want to buy... you either renovate your current home or look in a different neighborhood (or just stop looking).

IF you are in fact ready, the options are easy:
- raise your price
- reduce your needs list
- a little bit of both

If you absolutely can't reduce your list, then stick around for a few more years and make more money, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that!

But...if you're actually ready go , then buy the closest thing that fits your budget and take off. Once you're gone you'll realize none of the items on your list were needs anyway... they are wants.

There is no such thing as a perfect boat in anyones budget, we all want more than we can afford.

You can either stay at home wishing and hoping that there is/was a perfect boat (and saving more money while you wait so you can afford it when you find it) or you can sail away and realize that the boat was never the most important part of the equation.

The problem with time is we think we have more of it.

I would suggest before you go look at another boat, pour a glass and sit down together to ask yourselves whether:
- you'd rather be sailing on a slightly less than perfect boat that still gives you access to the life you want
- whether you'd rather stay where you are and not have a boat

For the last 2 years you've made that choice time and time again without actually deciding to... might as well make it upfront.

[Tupaia]

You don't really give an indication of how you intend to use the boat, apart from being ICW friendly.

Are you looking for a caravan or an ocean cruiser?

How many of the boats that you have looked at have you sailed?

[Skip JayR]

hm ... mega-sized bed on a boat ??? - Sounds like one is looking for something in the "Super Yacht" category?

Patiency, patiency, patiency ... it takes time to find the right one. During the search you will learn a lot about cat design and your own preferences which might change over the time.

Some few thoughts which might give you some impulses to re-think your demands to increase your chances to find your "beloved new sailing baby". :-)

1) Decent bridge deck clearance ... Are you aware of the formulas ? - Good article about here. - Not to forget clear deck surface, freeboard and windage you can read Wharram's advice, and behavour in bigger waves. On Wharram's website you get good ideas about the stability of catamarans, generally.

(Rec.: See also the Wharram Thought thread in this forum to learn more about the seaworthyness of catamaran designs here.)

2) At least one queen sized berth ... a boat is a boat is a boat (not talking here about luxury yacht segment). Be happy to have a normal double bed size, thats already luxury on any boat. I started in the 70s with sailing, and whenever I am on boats of big comfort, it feels like to be spoilt, as too much comfort brings you steadily away from being in direct contact with the nature elements. (Rec.: Doesn't mean you need matraz of bad quality to ruin your back.) - Remember also about you will sleep lots of time on deck, as it will be too hot under deck, so far you visit warmer regions. (Rec.: Had this summer on some hot days 38-40 degrees under deck, in Northern Europe. No way to sleep well if not going on deck.)

3) A squared off interior seating area ... can be reconfigured within first 1-2 years.

Watch the nice YT channel of a young couple who reconfigured (the saloon and much more of) a sportive Cat (stretched 40 ft Crowther) ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tlo1TBT2C90

4) A U-shaped galley ... can be reconfigured within first 2-3 years. See 3)

So long you can cook a healthy meal and wash your dishes all is fine. Don't expect to bring the big kitchen of land life onboard. Multihulls don't have extreme heeling, so you will feel comfortable to cook during sailing with any shape.

5) Decent but not obscene tankage ... water maker can compensate the problem of small water tanks. Solar panels will give you the power you need to run one. - Don't overload any multihull. In the size of 40 ft you have enough for 2 people to store for at least 1 week (100 litre water per week per person is enough, without excessive daily showering.)
Multihulls don't need big diesel tank capacities. As they have higher potential of speed, they can go far distances (also in lighter winds) faster (compared to heavy monohulls). Safe anchor bays to protect against bad weather can be found more easily as you have lower draft. So you don't need reach Marina harbours urgently and steadily to be safe.

6) Two heads (ideally with separate showers but not required). - Deck shower astern is more important and mostly used in warm regions. Also helps to avoid lots of cleaning under deck. - Not required to have two fully equipped heads in my understanding. Such are standard on cats with 4 cabins, which you don't need as a couple. I'd look for a 3 cabin boat to have more space for storage available. - Relevant you have a good toilet which does not give you some technical troubles on long distances, with easy handling and repairing.

7) A good sized freezer and fridge... can be reconfigured later. See 3.)

Nowadays we (who live on board of boats) like to avoid to eat tin-can food, as its not very healthy. E.g. you can process fermented food to store safely for long period of time (outside a freezer/fridge). - See also the thread in this forum "Provisioning: Food & Drink"

8) 40'+ LWL ... so you plan go to trans-continental ? - Do you have the (physical and technical) sailing and maintenance skills to manage 2-handed such a big boat (and good performer) going transocean ? The bigger the boat, the forces will increase not just linear.

9) A decent performer but it doesn't need to be a rocketship. - See design example mentioned under 3) and parameters named under 1).

It needs more than just length or well designed hulls/deck/beams, also required excellent sails, adequate mast/rigging (which can be re-configured over the time, e.g. to synthetic running and standing rig). If you'd go for a good performance boat, you'd pay alone for this part 60-80 Thousand Euros. Take your time to refit your boat and pimp it up. - Its fun to develop a close relationship with your boat over time.

10) Insurable - so many boats that may work are one-offs or cold molded. - Some insurances don't deal with boats elder than 30 years. So the year built might be around 15-20 years ago you still have plenty of time to use it by yourself before reselling it cheaply. Related to the other points 1)-9) and 11) I'd look for a boat with a good substance as fundament, and develope it from there further on to your individual needs. Take time for 2-3 or maybe 4 years. Don't forget sailing. :-)

11) Ideally, it would be ICW mast friendly and be florida keys draft friendly (4 feet).

mast ... if you don't look for an over powered cat with a 60 ft mast it should not be an issue, isnt? - The rough formula is: boat length = mast height + free board = bridge clearance. In European coastal waters of Baltic Sea we have some few smaller bridges which allow a maximum mast height of around 26 meters = 85 feet. How is it in intra coastal waterways around Florida keys ? Much lower bridges there ?

draft ... No multihull of 40 ft which has good performance should have a minimum dept of 1.2 meters. In my understanding thats to be expected in the heavier range of around 50 ft (e.g. heavy weight Outremer 49 (=50 ft 3 inch LOA) built in 2011 of 10 tons displacement). - Good performer have side daggerboards (instead fixed keel) to extend the draft safely. The benefit to sail multihulls is to fall dry on sandbanks in tidal waters, a good minimum draft herefore is 80-90 centimeters to have some unique experiences in tidal flat water streaming navigation.

Good luck !

[zboss]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Thank you for that. So well said.

I'm not going to change my requirements - they are what they are. Its helps if people conceptualize that I'm discussing an idealized boat; I'm not sure why everyone takes things so literally.

You can already see the negative pricing seeping into the industry. There are so many Lagoon 380's on the market... It's flush. I can't see how they and their similars can retain their high prices. We are heading for normalization.

[barnakiel]

I would go to st martin and buy a slightly less than perfect hull, maybe a rig from another. With little money and some sweat you can convert a post hurricane boat into a dream come true.


Remember reading a story of people who got a 40' hull ex rudders for 30k. This one actually came with the original rig. They replaced one engine that was flooded and had new rudders shipped from France. Whole 40' cat for less than 50k! Awesomeness.



Cheers,
b.

[Skip JayR]

Originally Posted by zboss

You can already see the negative pricing seeping into the industry. There are so many Lagoon 380's on the market... It's flush. I can't see how they and their similars can retain their high prices. We are heading for normalization.

Just had a discussion with a colleague about, a professional sailor.

Against my own opinion, that the boat market is crushing down globally further on, he argued about cruising catamarans that the prizes for this specific boat type will increase, as the demands for comfort will increase.

If we look at the steadily growing rate of cats within the fleet of charter boats ... also seen heavily on mooring fields in the well known and trendy hot spots (e.g. Antillas, Dominican Republic etc. ...) he might be right.


Prizes might increase for comfortable cruising cats indeed, as customers pay the "imaginary value" to get owned what is "common trend". - Under financial aspects it would be more wisely to get a 45 ft monohull, you can buy already for around 20-30,000 Euros. :-) As just seen in Netherlands for an elder 45ft steel ketch built in the 70s for long distance cruising, which just came into the market at a starting prize of only 10,000 Euros. Rig/Mast + engine + polstery shortly fully refitted :-)

(Source: http://bit.ly/Auction-Nordia45 )

[Skip JayR]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

I would go to st martin and buy a slightly less than perfect hull, maybe a rig from another. With little money and some sweat you can convert a post hurricane boat into a dream come true.

Had such kind ideas in the past. But after watching this video showing the "real pros and contras" I have my serious doubts about its a good idea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_8uV9B1zX0

[theDangerz]

Originally Posted by zboss

I'm not going to change my requirements - they are what they are.

Nobody is telling you that you have to change your requirements... just that you have to change something. If your requirements can't budge than you have to save more money to afford the boat you want (or wait and hope the market comes down to you... more on that later).
We personally weren't willing to let our lifelong dreams dictated by hoping for the best.

Originally Posted by zboss

I'm not going to change my requirements - they are what they are. Its helps if people conceptualize that I'm discussing an idealized boat; I'm not sure why everyone takes things so literally.

I think we're taking you literally because you didn't come on here asking a hypothetical question.
You came on here with a post that said you were frustrated (literally), described how you wasted 2 years looking at boats your cant afford (literally) and asked for help... thats what we're trying to do. Help within the confines of reality.

I'll be the first one to champion your goals and tell you that you can absolutely accomplish them (because you can!)... but i'm also always going to use logic when laying out or looking at a path to get there.

The next step after setting goals is turning them into plans... followed by making those plans a reality (by putting a date on the calendar).

Originally Posted by zboss

You can already see the negative pricing seeping into the industry. There are so many Lagoon 380's on the market... It's flush. I can't see how they and their similars can retain their high prices. We are heading for normalization.

Sounds a LOT like trying to time the market to me. That doesn't historically go well... but hopefully you beat the odds!

[Skip JayR]

Originally Posted by theDangerz

Nobody is telling you that you have to change your requirements... just that you have to change something. If your requirements can't budge than you have to save more money to afford the boat you want (or wait and hope the market comes down to you... more on that later).
We personally weren't willing to let our lifelong dreams dictated by hoping for the best.

I think we're taking you literally because you didn't come on here asking a hypothetical question.
You came on here with a post that said you were frustrated (literally), described how you wasted 2 years looking at boats your cant afford (literally) and asked for help... thats what we're trying to do. Help within the confines of reality.

I'll be the first one to champion your goals and tell you that you can absolutely accomplish them (because you can!)... but i'm also always going to use logic when laying out or looking at a path to get there.

Human inter-action, verbally and non-verbally is probably the most challenging for any man and woman to succeed successfully.

In such a forum where nearby all goes only in written form, (too) easily words and sentences can be misunderstood and mislead to tension, aversions, antipathies ...

I am also radio presenter and I have to go through a deep process of self reflection steadily, for writing my moderation text (for an educational format). Its tricky, as words have their own power. Using language can manipulate and hurt (in the worst case), or encourage and motivate, make somebody curious about a new topic.

Remembers me your video of May 2019, theDangerz ... you are talking about communication on board, on limited space living close together.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26V8vd9ZGRg

It needs a steadily training of self-awareness (by self reflection and an inner dialogue) to keep our relationships, and own needs in balance. This closes the circle of the given topic "Frustrated Shopper", which shows that something is obviously is not in balance. "Being steadily frustrated" as a kind of self punishment I'd don't see as a healthy behaviour.

On my own, I need a feedback by somebody else to come out of my own traps I produce by my own thinking, I put myself into by looking only into one (and wrong) direction, mis-judging a given situation, and therefore come to wrong conclusions and make unhealthy decisions.

Just had such a situation couple of days ago I got photos of a commercial sailing ship to buy for a specific sailing project ... the interieur under deck (see attachments) was not very inviting for me. It looked very ugly for me ... only what I liked of this 26 meter ship was the sail plan/rig. Its a fast vessel, overpowered 2-master with 295 m2 sails area (at only 80 tons displacement), which I like. i love to sail big boats fast.
I showed the snaps to a colleague, a sailor friend who is more the carpenter type to fix things and he just said: "Little bit sanding and painting of the wood, put some nice photos on the walls and it will look good." So simple this solution ? - Indeed, it is as its just the way to look at to avoid stress in own mind. - The "negative picture" I had about this ship turned from a feeling being stressed to think about if its worth to deal further on into curiosity and "easy going". Still some doubts, but it took out the hurdle to take the next step to have a closer look at.

What I want say: its not just a rational approach to come to something concrete, by making lists, a plan, setting benchmarks and fixing targets. Human psyche is very complexe and it can need very different approaches, adapted to the (emotional) needs of an individual. Hardly possible in such a forum to press the right button to trigger a person's mind, isn't ? :-) So its good to have a lots of input to pick out the parts one can deal with positively.

If I would be in the situation to look for the right boat, which I am - beside the professional sailing project I just mentioned - I think its worth to go the pragmatical way: start small, do small steps = learn fast and steadily, avoid big mistakes = huge loss of investment.

I live now since 16 months on boats which I rent, two different types (30 ft slup, 17 meter 2 mast gaff rigged tjalk), and I have learnt a lot about myself to get an understanding, what I need on my own boat. And I sail a lot on different boats, from smaller keel yachts, multihulls to bigger ships. - it was worth this investment to pay rent, to work on sailing ships (badly paid), race regatas etc. ... as it helped to avoid to buy the very wrong boat. Finally, its all a compromize. The perfect boat probably does not exist.

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by Skip JayR

Human inter-action, verbally and non-verbally is probably the most challenging for any man and woman to succeed successfully.

In such a forum where nearby all goes only in written form, (too) easily words and sentences can be misunderstood and mislead to tension, aversions, antipathies ...

I am also radio presenter and I have to go through a deep process of self reflection steadily, for writing my moderation text (for an educational format). Its tricky, as words have their own power. Using language can manipulate and hurt (in the worst case), or encourage and motivate, make somebody curious about a new topic.

Remembers me your video of May 2019, theDangerz ... you are talking about communication on board, on limited space living close together.

It needs a steadily training of self-awareness (by self reflection and an inner dialogue) to keep our relationships, and own needs in balance. This closes the circle of the given topic "Frustrated Shopper", which shows that something is obviously is not in balance. "Being steadily frustrated" as a kind of self punishment I'd don't see as a healthy behaviour.

On my own, I need a feedback by somebody else to come out of my own traps I produce by my own thinking, I put myself into by looking only into one (and wrong) direction, mis-judging a given situation, and therefore come to wrong conclusions and make unhealthy decisions.

Just had such a situation couple of days ago I got photos of a commercial sailing ship to buy for a specific sailing project ... the interieur under deck (see attachments) was not very inviting for me. It looked very ugly for me ... only what I liked of this 26 meter ship was the sail plan/rig. Its a fast vessel, overpowered 2-master with 295 m2 sails area (at only 80 tons displacement), which I like. i love to sail big boats fast.
I showed the snaps to a colleague, a sailor friend who is more the carpenter type to fix things and he just said: "Little bit sanding and painting of the wood, put some nice photos on the walls and it will look good." So simple this solution ? - Indeed, it is as its just the way to look at to avoid stress in own mind. - The "negative picture" I had about this ship turned from a feeling being stressed to think about if its worth to deal further on into curiosity and "easy going". Still some doubts, but it took out the hurdle to take the next step to have a closer look at.

What I want say: its not just a rational approach to come to something concrete, by making lists, a plan, setting benchmarks and fixing targets. Human psyche is very complexe and it can need very different approaches, adapted to the (emotional) needs of an individual. Hardly possible in such a forum to press the right button to trigger a person's mind, isn't ? :-) So its good to have a lots of input to pick out the parts one can deal with positively.

If I would be in the situation to look for the right boat, which I am - beside the professional sailing project I just mentioned - I think its worth to go the pragmatical way: start small, do small steps = learn fast and steadily, avoid big mistakes = huge loss of investment.

I live now since 16 months on boats which I rent, two different types (30 ft slup, 17 meter 2 mast gaff rigged tjalk), and I have learnt a lot about myself to get an understanding, what I need on my own boat. And I sail a lot on different boats, from smaller keel yachts, multihulls to bigger ships. - it was worth this investment to pay rent, to work on sailing ships (badly paid), race regatas etc. ... as it helped to avoid to buy the very wrong boat. Finally, its all a compromize. The perfect boat probably does not exist.

What's not to like on this boat? Looks awesome, interior is not too bad, plenty of room, great sails plan, but not for singlehanding.

[Skip JayR]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

What's not to like on this boat? Looks awesome, interior is not too bad, plenty of room, great sails plan, but not for singlehanding.

Not allowed to sail single handed as it is certified as commercial sailing vessel. It needs professional crew = captain + 1st mate (plus 2nd mate if >50 people for day sailing). Therefore I talked about "professional = commercial sailing project". With Standard sails (Main sail, Jib + Missen) we can sail such ship by a trained crew two-handed, a good captain + mate without having guests up to 4-5 bft can manage it.

Related to your "positive feedback" we see: it's only my own perception I have in mind which might take the chance from me to make a good deal :-)

But lets focus further on ZBoos' issue he addressed. Hope didn't happen as I just described, that maybe you walk along the right boat, but with the wrong glasses on, it's not seen as such, still waiting unnoticed. :-)

Do you believe in the statement another sailing friend tells me if I don't get the ship I wanted to buy: "If it doesn't happen to make the deal, its not the right one. Have the confidence, that it will come to you. The right one is out there."

[CatNewBee]

The ship always finds the owner...

Sometimes there is the perfect match, and the price is then second. We searched with two differnt premises, either a relatively new boat, expensive, but well equipped and ready to sail or an older boat cheap with potential to equipe with recent gear and sail away after a year of work. Budget for both was the same.

A brand new was not in the budget unfortunately, also waiting an year for delivery was out of our planning. Would not had match our needs either.

We knew what we wanted and thought about different options to get there.

[JC Reefer]

sounds more like you want validation on the silly reasons your not already in a boat.

I may have missed it, but what was that budget? In this case, money can solve all your problems.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Skip JayR

Had such kind ideas in the past. But after watching this video showing the "real pros and contras" I have my serious doubts about its a good idea.

You are right this particular one must have spent a time immersed - one look at topsides.


But not all boats were affected in the same way. I know a few stories from that area and I am 100% sure there existed, or still exist, good opportunities. Of course only for people who understand what they are buying!


b.