FP Marquises 56 or Eluthera

[ikold]

Can someone explain the differences / improvements made between the two. I found a lovely FP Marquises but was told that the Eluthera was a large improvement. Not sure what is better? Is the Marquises a great boat? Obviously the newer boat is more expensive but the difference is not that great...

How do these boats fare in performance to an Outremer or St. Francis ?

Thanks

[dan360]

Well an Outremer 49, 55 or a 5X will all be a good amount faster than either FP. Different strokes for different folks, sail on both and you'll see the size and performance differences.

[ikold]

How would the St. Francis fare ? It seems to strike a compromise between the two. Performance and luxury.

[dan360]

I've not sailed on a St Francis so can't comment personally. I have sailed on both Outremer and FP. Looking at the basic specs of the St Francis 50 vs Outremer 49 the sail areas are similar, but the St Francis spec weight is 12.5T vs 9.5T. That will likely be reflected in interior volume being much bigger, and the boat being slower. It certainly looks like the cabins for example have beds over the bridge deck which will result in lower clearance. I find pictures to be a poor indication of what a boat is really like and there is no substitute for both going on board and sailing. You have to make your own choice of inexpensive, space and performance. You can have 2 of those three.

[Tropic Cat]

People seem to forget that screaming fast catamarans are built light. Too light to contemplate getting caught in Force 10 or 11 for 3 or 4 days while falling off mountainous waves.

Is the original poster looking for a racing boat or a cruising boat? You get to pick just one.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Tropic Cat

People seem to forget that screaming fast catamarans are built light. Too light to contemplate getting caught in Force 10 or 11 for 3 or 4 days while falling off mountainous waves.

Is the original poster looking for a racing boat or a cruising boat? You get to pick just one.

My guess is the round the world multi racers would absolutely disagree with this.

[ikold]

Looking for a comfortable cruising boat for the family first. Performance is important but second to comfort. It seems nowadays you can get a luxurious and sporty boat too.

[dan360]

Originally Posted by Tropic Cat

People seem to forget that screaming fast catamarans are built light. Too light to contemplate getting caught in Force 10 or 11 for 3 or 4 days while falling off mountainous waves.

Is the original poster looking for a racing boat or a cruising boat? You get to pick just one.

An Outremer or a Catana is not a racing boat. They are cruising boats, but they compromise space for performance. A 5X @59' is probably interior space wise comparable to a 48-50' FP and substantially more expensive.

Its just a matter of different compromises. IMHO a FP is definitely comfortable, capable and safe, its not really very sporty. Both FPs I've charted sail really nicely in the trades when there is 15kts or more. Between 10 and 15 kts you struggle a little and <10kts you pretty much have to turn on the engine. My experience is that they'll sail at around 50% of the wind speed and top out at 9 or 10 kts. I've sailed on a 5X at 16 kts in 18 kts of true wind - the big "but" being the price difference.

Neither an Outremer or a Catana is built "light" in the hull department - they are built light in interior fixtures and fittings. Both are built for a world blue water cruising not racing.

[Tropic Cat]

Originally Posted by smj

My guess is the round the world multi racers would absolutely disagree with this.

Not a helpful comment

Are you suggesting he's shopping in the price range of a world multihull racer? Are you suggesting he has the ground crew to follow him around and fly in crews and parts when things break?

[Tropic Cat]

Originally Posted by dan360

An Outremer or a Catana is not a racing boat. They are cruising boats, but they compromise space for performance. A 5X @59' is probably interior space wise comparable to a 48-50' FP and substantially more expensive.

Its just a matter of different compromises. IMHO a FP is definitely comfortable, capable and safe, its not really very sporty. Both FPs I've charted sail really nicely in the trades when there is 15kts or more. Between 10 and 15 kts you struggle a little and <10kts you pretty much have to turn on the engine. My experience is that they'll sail at around 50% of the wind speed and top out at 9 or 10 kts. I've sailed on a 5X at 16 kts in 18 kts of true wind - the big "but" being the price difference.

Neither an Outremer or a Catana is built "light" in the hull department - they are built light in interior fixtures and fittings. Both are built for a world blue water cruising not racing.

Both dagger board boats....

First, I know you realize that blue water cruising is obviously not what you see in catamaran advertisements. When the wind is under 20 knots and you have gentle swells aft of the beam, life is wonderful.

My post obviously doesn't relate to these perfect sailing days, rather it's when you get caught in weather. I really don't believe FP makes a boat that does well in the conditions I stated. They begin flexing and groaning in much milder conditions.

Your boat's number one job is to keep the crew safe. While doing this, it's helpful if it's comfortable and fast.

2nd, in my opinion dagger board boats belong on a race course, not out cruising without expert catamaran sailors on board.. They fly more canvas and obviously are built to go faster and to point better as performance boats are meant.... yet they are the poster "child" for catamarans that turn turtle and have probably killed more people than we know as they require expert and savvy crews to operate them within their performance envelope. The casual or novice sailor will get in trouble immediately as they aren't aware how early you have to reef a catamaran or what "tripping over your boards" means.

I also think in a general public sailing forum such as this one, that people who know better make it a point to explain the difference for those reading these posts who do not have the knowledge or experience.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Tropic Cat

Not a helpful comment

Are you suggesting he's shopping in the price range of a world multihull racer? Are you suggesting he has the ground crew to follow him around and fly in crews and parts when things break?

I believe the comment was helpful. Just because a boat is light and fast doesn't mean it is weakly built and dangerous. With new technologies cats can be built a lot stronger and lighter with the use of cores and high tech fabrics. With the improvements in design thee same light boats can be as or probably more seaworthy than the earlier designs.
I know your a fan of the old solid glass hulls and the older British designs as I am as well. But I've also realized that a lot of the newer designs and builds have advantages in strength, seaworthiness and performance over the older models.
Also quite a few would argue that daggerboard boats are actually more seaworthy than keel boats as the daggerboards can be raised leaving less keel area to trip on.

[Tropic Cat]

Originally Posted by smj

..... But I've also realized that a lot of the newer designs and builds have advantages in strength, seaworthiness and performance over the older models.

Seaworthiness and performance are at opposite ends of the catamaran spectrum, and you know this. A hobie cat will flip in 50 knots of wind, but cruise at 25 knots at 20 knots of wind all day long. At the other end of the spectrum, my Catalac won't ever do more than 7 knots but will survive a hurricane (yeah, I went 100 miles through hurricane Katrina).

Originally Posted by smj

Also quite a few would argue that daggerboard boats are actually more seaworthy than keel boats as the daggerboards can be raised leaving less keel area to trip on.

If I ignore what barnacles can and will do to dagger board trunks and we forget that as you scuff up your boards, they will delaminate and just concentrate just on that fact that you think a dagger board boat is more "seaworthy" than a boat with a fixed keel. I'm speechless.... except to say that in this universe, that's simply not the case. The only area where there is any advantage to using boards is clawing off a lee shore in a blow. Something no one has had to do since they put twin diesels in catamarans.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Tropic Cat

Seaworthiness and performance are at opposite ends of the catamaran spectrum, and you know this. A hobie cat will flip in 50 knots of wind, but cruise at 25 knots at 20 knots of wind all day long. At the other end of the spectrum, my Catalac won't ever do more than 7 knots but will survive a hurricane (yeah, I went 100 miles through hurricane Katrina).

If I ignore what barnacles can and will do to dagger board trunks and we forget that as you scuff up your boards, they will delaminate and just concentrate just on that fact that you think a dagger board boat is more "seaworthy" than a boat with a fixed keel. I'm speechless.... except to say that in this universe, that's simply not the case. The only area where there is any advantage to using boards is clawing off a lee shore in a blow. Something no one has had to do since they put twin diesels in catamarans.

I'm Sorry Rick but these statements are so of base that its not worth the time debating them. I guess everyone's entitled to their opinion.

[Teeto]

Older cats are not necessarily heavy. Our 45 foot Chamberlin comes in about 8 tonnes loaded. Cedar strip with epoxy. A king bed, a queen and a double. Comfy, strong and very seaworthy. Been across the Pacific and back. She's 17 years old but we are often asked if we bought her new (only had her two years).

[slosaileddie]

For the record: A new Outremer 5x will cost Euro 850k and a Catana 59 Euro 1.3 mil
That is the basic version. What you spend after that is another matter. There is a difference of 5+ tons in weight in favor of the Outremer as well as many square meters/feet of sail. Both are lighter and faster and will sail far closer to the wind than any FP. Any FP more than five years old will need significant amounts of money spent on them. Refits are dubious propositions because too many of them are cosmetic and do not replace electrics/electronics, engines, sails and rigging.
Older Outremers are excellent boats, very suitable to round the world navigation, but by American standards most have very Spartan interiors. They are, however, probably the most seaworthy and comfortable due to there excellent weight distribution. The new generation has aimed to improve style and comfort without compromising performance and they have come very close. The company has excellent after sales service by yachting standards and immense stability as a company.
Catana is a luxury catamaran that has sacrificed some speed to volume and creature comforts. The are certainly too electronic and the after sales service is not up too scratch for gunkholing. The latest models have extremely well designed interiors, but the company has been bankrupt half a dozen times in the last 15 yrs and the current owners are not from a yachting environment, so service continuity is soso.
FPs have been around for ever and the company will not disappear tomorrow. The boats are slow and comfortable and soso to windward. Most of the charter boats have too many cabins and are consequently heavy. They do not wear too well and any of them with large quantities of awlgrip covering the gelcoat should be inspected with care
Any refit should be judged by the attention given to details like new wiring, plumbing, rig etc. Not the teak and the paint
Good Luck