FP Lavezzi complete re-rig going from 1/19 12mm to hamma prostrand compact 10mm

[CaptainRivet]

Hi all,
Can I savely swap 1/19 in 12 mm to hamma prostand in 10mm? Headrigger of Jimmy green said I can do it but wanna have more opinions.

I am doing a complete new standing rigging on my 2005 FP Lavezzi.
It has 1/19 in 12mm on the shrouds and diamonds 10mm.
Standard 1/19 in 12mm has a breaking load of 10400kg (KOS, org from Zspar? Even or most likely less). Hamma pro 1/19 compact strand in 10mm has a minimum of 10250kg breaking load, so only 150kg less.
For diamonds it’s 1/19 12mm 7250 kg (KOS, zspar?) and hamma is 6500kg, there it’s 750kg. Maybe keep diamond in 1/19 standard but I really like the advantages of the hamma pro compact wire?
The Pin size on shrouds and forestay Is 16mm which is at bluewave, sta-lock, Petersen the size for 10mm wire. For 12mm it’s 18.5mm pin size so would need the 12mm bodies with downsized pin if staying 1/19 standard which means that would be the weakest link.
Advantages of hamma pro strand compact would be:
- less stretch
- no tea staining
- lighter
- ages better
Cost the wire is 25% more expensive but would use also the hamma pro terminals which have a higher breaking load then the hamma compact wire are one size smaller=cheaper, so cost the total cost difference is negligible. Not my reason to save money here but nice it wouldn‘t cost significantly more.

The rig on Lavezzi seems on the well dimensioned side, mentioned by my surveyor and head rigger jimmy green agrees to that. This backed up by the facts:
Lavezzi is lightship 6.2t and fully load liveaboard I am at 8.5t (payload is 2750kg so max 9t) and has 90sqm sail area.
The FP Lipari 40ft with 11t lightship and 92sqm sail area has the same mast and rig with 12mm/10mm as the Lavezzi.
The danson outremer 45 opposite of my berth has also 1/19 in 12mm wire too on shrouds and forestay but is longer, has more sail area with laminated sail and fully loaded due to owner at 10t. Outremer is definitely not saving on the rig.
What’s your opinion?

[Tupaia]

If you are doing a complete re-rig consider synthetic (Dynex Dux or similar). If not all of it, at least the main shrouds.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

If you are doing a complete re-rig consider synthetic (Dynex Dux or similar). If not all of it, at least the main shrouds.

Why should I?
I had this idea but surveyor (who does eg ocean volvo race) said he wouldn't recommend. To much maintenance for very little advantage on a Lavezzi. he also likes my hamma pro strand option going down one size eliminates basically all advantages I would get using dyneema on a Lavezzi. Performance cat similar to Outremer would be a different cup of tea...
Where I will use DUX is adding backstays to top of the mast that Lavezzi doesn't have till now, mostly as additional security to the cap shrouds but it also allows me to move the spi halyard up from 7/8 to top or I will just have one at 7/8 and one on top and fly a 10% bigger parasailor which I already have from a ship with the same mast height as mine but with halyard on top of mast and not 7/8.

The hamma pro strand seems to me a very good compromise, everything on shrouds/forstay/martingale fits as is without any mods as they are 16mm pins which is standard for 10mm. And the big price jump from 10 to 12 makes the normally significantly more expensive hamma pro strand in one size down actual nearly even in costs.

My issue are the diamonds. Is 8mm with 6500kg breaking strength good enough versus the 1/19 standard in 10mm, with KOS 7250kg breaking strength but what's the breaking strength of the zspar 10mm wire?
In 12mm the zspar is 9500kg, KOS 10450kg which is around 10% less...if that 10% is the same in 10mm wire I am definitely good as 7250Kg -10% is the 6500kg breaking load the 8mm hamma pro strand has.
Finding the right coquilles for the replacement with 8mm pro strand that fits the mast is the last challenge the rigger is working on.

[Tin Tin]

So the rig you are replacing, is it original 19 years old?

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Why should I?
I had this idea but surveyor (who does eg ocean volvo race) said he wouldn't recommend. To much maintenance for very little advantage on a Lavezzi. he also likes my hamma pro strand option going down one size eliminates basically all advantages I would get using dyneema on a Lavezzi. Performance cat similar to Outremer would be a different cup of tea...

I'm confused what maintenance? Sheathed Dynex requires no more maintenance than SS.
I used https://strongrope.com/ and because it was a retrofit utilised all my existing turnbuckles. If you are unsure leave the diamonds as SS but looks like they are causing you parts issues anyway. My SS shrouds weighed 15kg compared to synthetic at 750grams. Weight aloft on a cat is everything.



I always question these guys that do things like "the ocean volvo race" (monohulls). I had a set of sails made by a guy that deigned the sails for an "nz americas cup boat" (monohull). Wouldn't sail my boat round a pond and they ended up giving me a full refund.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Tin Tin

So the rig you are replacing, is it original 19 years old?

I don't know, that's why I am doing it.
Rigger and surveyor assume diamonds are original and the rest was changed most likely 9-10years ago. All besides turnbuckles still in good condition and passed the rig check.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

I'm confused what maintenance? Sheathed Dynex requires no more maintenance than SS.
I used https://strongrope.com/ and because it was a retrofit utilised all my existing turnbuckles. If you are unsure leave the diamonds as SS but looks like they are causing you parts issues anyway. My SS shrouds weighed 15kg compared to synthetic at 750grams. Weight aloft on a cat is everything.



I always question these guys that do things like "the ocean volvo race" (monohulls). I had a set of sails made by a guy that deigned the sails for an "nz americas cup boat" (monohull). Wouldn't sail my boat round a pond and they ended up giving me a full refund.

I was told dyneema always needs constant check and retensioning. It's not like SS rig after initial setting tune once and then good. And with compact wire because of less strech even less.
My surveyor knows his stuff and in detail my cat, the mods we done to it and all he recommended so far was spot on so I trust him.
Just mentioned volvo ocean race because they definitely have sailors they know how to sail...he is not theoretically designing something for them but he is using it and operating the vessel and not only monos. He is also a naval architect and engineer.
And i know metalls but have not much knowledge about dyneema and rig, thats why i am doing re-rig together with a cat racer to learn it (he can do SS or dyneema). That's why I can also only repeat what others state to me and I try to verify as best as I can before I make the final decision. And thats the reason of positing it here as I know here are very knowledgeable sailors to get options, opinion and suggestions and verifying what I got explained.

I could make my live easy and order just a complete rig at Zspar but I get more quality and better performance for equally or a bit more money and learning already a lot along the process. And well the way Zspar UK is not supporting here to find the right coquilles confirms also not worth doing business with them if I can avoid them. Getting new headcar and intermediate cars was also a pita.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

I was told dyneema always needs constant check and retensioning.

This used to be the case, a reputation for being rubber rigging but that is no longer the case with proper pre-tensioned rope really is fit and forget.


You should go with what you are comfortable with so why not stay with what has worked for 19 years doesn't sound like there were any issues.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

This used to be the case, a reputation for being rubber rigging but that is no longer the case with proper pre-tensioned rope really is fit and forget.


You should go with what you are comfortable with so why not stay with what has worked for 19 years doesn't sound like there were any issues.

The zspar rig sucks,
- turnbuckles are bad quality and also known to seize....need to cut all 6 wires as both diamonds all turnbuckles are seized
- diamonds the wire gets a lot tea staining
- the casted T pieces (most critical part that fail the most) are very bad to inspect as surface you cannot see if that's a crack or just some leftover from casting.
Zspar uses 16mm pin on 12mm wire on purpose so you cannot easly swap to another manufacturer, same with coquilles and stemball fitting on diamonds. Pin size fits perfect to hamma pro strand 10mm, so catch 3 bunnies at the same time: fits without mods, lighter and stretches less

For nearly the same total amount I get a hamma pro strand regatta rig that has less strech, weigh less, gets no tea staining, ages better, much better T piece with polished surface so you can see cracks and overall much better quality then the Zspar stuff.

From antiseize spray and oil I have trays on the aluminum of the mast, any idea what I can use to remove them?

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

This used to be the case, a reputation for being rubber rigging but that is no longer the case with proper pre-tensioned rope really is fit and forget.


You should go with what you are comfortable with so why not stay with what has worked for 19 years doesn't sound like there were any issues.

The zspar rig sucks,
- turnbuckles are bad quality and also known to seize....need to cut all 6 wires as both diamonds all turnbuckles are seized
- diamonds the wire gets a lot tea staining
- the casted T pieces (most critical part that fail the most) are very bad to inspect as surface you cannot see if that's a crack or just some leftover from casting.
Zspar uses 16mm pin on 12mm on purpose so you cannot easly swap to another manufacturer, same with coquilles and stemball fitting on diamonds. Pin size fits perfect to hamma pro strand 10mm.

For nearly the same total amount I get a hamma pro strand regatta rig that has less strech, weigh less, gets no tea staining, ages better, much better T piece with polished surface so you can see cracks and overall much better quality then the Zspar stuff.

[Mpetri]

Please note that my ex.lipari 41 full loafed on the travel lift with weight indicator stops the display at 9320kg with everything for long cruising on board and 4 people and full water tanks and full diesel tank and 6 tanks more, two windsurf, ecc... Ready for summer holidays.
Lipari 41 is not so heavy at all!
Only to give real figures

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

This used to be the case, a reputation for being rubber rigging but that is no longer the case with proper pre-tensioned rope really is fit and forget.


You should go with what you are comfortable with so why not stay with what has worked for 19 years doesn't sound like there were any issues.

If you sail somewhere with big temperature variations (I'm told >15* C to matter for non-competitive rigs) then because Dyneema has opposite temperature expansion/contraction to aluminium and steel you do have to loosen your Dyneema shrouds when it gets warm and tighten them when it gets cold. We certainly noticed the difference in tension of our rig (and adjusted it) between Tasmania and the equator.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by fxykty

If you sail somewhere with big temperature variations (I'm told >15* C to matter for non-competitive rigs) then because Dyneema has opposite temperature expansion/contraction to aluminium and steel you do have to loosen your Dyneema shrouds when it gets warm and tighten them when it gets cold. We certainly noticed the difference in tension of our rig (and adjusted it) between Tasmania and the equator.

Yes, agreed, but generally speaking they do not require constant re-tensioning as per the OP's rigger comments. It was the case with early incarnations that did suffer various issues with stretch and creep.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

Yes, agreed, but generally speaking they do not require constant re-tensioning as per the OP's rigger comments. It was the case with early incarnations that did suffer various issues with stretch and creep.

Ok thanks.
Is there now a replacement in dyneema I can just "screw on" without any mods to chainplates for the shrouds or coquilles for the diamonds?
Shrouds are 16mm Pin top and bottom and diamonds are coquilles with 10mm stemball fitting. Means I have the same terminal+turnbuckle but then dyneema terminal and dyneema rope replacing the SS wire with swage terminals?
But the forestay with furler drumm and genua stays SS wire?
Plan to get Elvstöm epex sails and with FFoF props, mods on the main sail track incl. installing intermediate cars for better luff tension and longer genua track I done all that the generally light Lavezzi sails to its best ability. 6.2t lightship, on the scale 8.5t complitly load up with lifeboard gear, provison for 3 month and full tanks with 90sqm of sail area is not too bad at all. Aware it will never be an "outremer" but a well sailing cruisers cat and the best sailing one my budget allows till in 6 years some investments free up to go to a +/- 45ft performance cat most likely be in the asian/aussi area then where there is more of a choice then a catana 431.

So a rig fitting that is my goal. Problem is I don't have a rigger that is so professional here locally to guide me to the best solution. Jimmy green would produce all i tell them but i have to come with the ideas like the hamma pro strand rigg instead standard also because of pin size.
Any idea who I could call/contact who guides me through and don't mind give the order to produce the rig we together choose. Willing to pay for the consultation...

I have a boat builder locally that help me to physically replace wire or dyneema rig and get the initial setup right. But he is not skilled enough to guide me to the right rig setup.