FP 40 Lavezzi vs Leopard 40/42 for £130k-£150k

[Dragon Lady]

You really can't go wrong with any of those production cats, what it comes down to is what you like.
I think the FPs sail the best but they fall down in quality.
The layout comes down to what you like the best and what works for you.
I really like the way you can walk all the way around the Lavezzi deck and stern but that's just my opinion.
You have to look at each of the boats and get a feel for them.
FP does have osmosis issues but not all FP have it and some have been fixed with no further problems.

[muskoka]

Originally Posted by toby24b

Hi Ausaviator
.... foam core (which also scares me somewhat, although if you're getting water ingress in there surely you're pretty buggered whatever the material is?)?

Water ingress is bad news no matter what the core. However, I have a preference for foam because all to frequently a boat gets water ingress through a loose deck fitting and at least foam doesn't rot.

Originally Posted by toby24b

Hi Muskoka
I think you're right. 2 out of 3 aint bad. Whilst I'm not fussy about performance, I like the fact that most cats will sail upright, with less effort, at higher speeds in comfort than most monos.

Most of the cats you're looking at aren't faster than a decent 50 foot monohull (which would cost about the same). Once you load up a cat it really slows down - they are extremely weight sensitive and don't carry loads like a monohull. I'd say this is one of the biggest misconceptions about cats.

Originally Posted by toby24b

Further to this, it's nice when buying a sailboat, to actually sail; thus those that will sail in lighter winds are preferable; even if you're only doing 3-5 knots it's better than driving. I hate driving around in a sailboat; you wouldn't sail a car, either.

Too many modern cats are so heavy and under canvassed they just don't sail that well (but they look impressive on the dock). It's pure physics: Light, big sails + fine hulls = fast / Heavy small sails + fat hulls = Not so fast.

For example, within the 38-40 ft range of popular production boats you can find a 7T boat with 90 sm of sail. You can also find a 10.3T boat with 88 sm of sail. The first will sail OK, the latter won't.

Originally Posted by toby24b

So while it's marginal, I understand the Lagoons to be more comfort and less performance than the other big manufacturers mentioned above and hence am thinking about them less. I'm willing to listen if someone wants to dissuade me (on anything), though.

Not all boats by the same manufacturer are built to the same design objective. The Lagoon 380 is a nice compromise of comfort and reasonable performance. Some of her slightly larger sister ships are clearly built with an eye for comfort rather than performance.

Look at the numbers. They won't tell you everything but they'll tell you a lot.

Originally Posted by toby24b

I haven't owned a boat before but have sailed quite a bit around the south coast of the UK (club and regatta crewing) and in the Med (holidays, on monos). I have a large family (4 young kids) and and inexperienced wife (she's inexperienced as a sailor, as a wife she's done 12 years with me, which is hard enough mileage), both of whom are pretty new to sailing and I have a much better chance of getting them keen by presenting them with a flat, broad platform to sail on than a bucking, narrow one!

Cats are great platforms for living and entertaining. They're also great under way as they provide such a stable platform. They're fun boats. Personally, I like them enough that I bought one after decades of being a monohull sailor.

The Lavezzi is a nice sailboat with a very intelligent deck layout which perhaps caters more to sailing than lounging. We regularly get double digits with a cruising load. She's no gin palace but plenty comfortable - but then I wanted the "light and quick" end of the spectrum.

Cheers

[toby24b]

Thanks Muskoka, great post. Don't want to get too wrapped up in cores; buying at 5-7 years old I'm already at the mercy of the reputation of the manufacturer and the surveyor I use. I've seen the osmosis posts about the 03/04 Lavezzis, and won't be buying at that age anyway, but must listen to my surveyor.
I'm more interested about practicalities of using the boats. Your comment
'The Lavezzi is a nice sailboat with a very intelligent deck layout which perhaps caters more to sailing than lounging. We regularly get double digits with a cruising load. She's no gin palace but plenty comfortable'
appeals, but I still hate that galley. How do you find it when out for, say a week or more, or do you not use your cat like that? The Leopard is heavier, but presmuably the flipside of that is stronger build and better loadbearing?

[muskoka]

Originally Posted by toby24b

Thanks Muskoka, great post.....
appeals, but I still hate that galley. How do you find it when out for, say a week or more, or do you not use your cat like that?

Well, I'd never let the galley drive my decision...but, we have lived on the boat for up to 6 months at a time. My wife mainly cooks in the galley and I do most of my cooking on the BBQ. We both like to cook and don't shy away from complicated menus - and we both find the galley to be perfectly functional.

Originally Posted by toby24b

The Leopard is heavier, but presmuably the flipside of that is stronger build and better loadbearing?

That's not a safe assumption. Some of the premium boats (Privilege) have a heavier layup, but with production boats it's often just more furniture. Saving weight costs money, but alas, it doesn't sell boats nearly as well as more furniture. Weight on cats is a real performance killer.

For example, an Outremer is light, fast and a great boat - but many would call the interior spartan. So, basically on one extreme you have the Outremer 42, and at the other I'd say something more luxurious like the Lagoon 40. I'm sure both sets of owners love them, but it would be wrong to say the Lagoon is safer, better or more seaworthy because it weighs more.

Cheers

[muskoka]

Double post!!

[toby24b]

That's not a safe assumption. Some of the premium boats (Privilege) have a heavier layup, but with production boats it's often just more furniture. Saving weight costs money, but alas, it doesn't sell boats nearly as well as more furniture. Weight on cats is a real performance killer.

For example, an Outremer is light, fast and a great boat - but many would call the interior spartan. So, basically on one extreme you have the Outremer 42, and at the other I'd say something more luxurious like the Lagoon 40. I'm sure both sets of owners love them, but it would be wrong to say the Lagoon is safer, better or more seaworthy because it weighs more.

Cheers[/QUOTE]

No, appreciate that extra weight does not always equal strength, I meant in this case, ie FP vs Leopard. Leopard is heavier but seems more solidly built too. As for loadbearing, if you say the FP will take a load as well a Leopard, that is OK for me.

[muskoka]

Originally Posted by toby24b

No, appreciate that extra weight does not always equal strength, I meant in this case, ie FP vs Leopard. Leopard is heavier but seems more solidly built too. As for loadbearing, if you say the FP will take a load as well a Leopard, that is OK for me.

Actually, the FP won't take the same payload. Look at the transoms of a Seawind/FP vs a Leopard/Lagoon and you'll notice the latter have wider hulls. The L/L's will carry more payload, but the wider hulls mean more wetted surface especially as they're loaded up. Rather than widen the transoms, Manta chose to increase their hulls from 38 to 42 feet in order to keep the hulls fine and still carry a large cruising payload.

They're all built to purpose, but you can't have payload and performance (Gunboats excepted). It's an inversely proportional trade-off. There's no holy grail!

Cheers

[Wannabe-007]

Forgive me for resurrecting a dated thread, but after a few hours searching the forums for info on Lavezzii 40 vs Leopard 40 vs Lagoon, it only seems 'right' to weigh in.

I'm starting to lean towards the Leopard. Here's my quick 2c...

Wannabes highlight:
Lagoon: Room - heaps of it
Lavezzi: Sex appeal - its a really nice looking boat
Leopard: Layout - dinnette, galley, nav station - all very nicely laid out

Wannabes lowlight:
Lagoon: Asthetics - I want to like it, but I just dont... i reeeeally dont.
Lavezzi: Osmosis / blistering - seems to be a pretty painful issue.
Leopard: Bridgedeck clearance - *Theoritically at least, she can be a bit of a slapper.

Wannabes nightlight:
Lagoon: I think the lagoon to have would be the 410, but the 410 is considerably more pricey, and there is less of them - but why oh why are the aft beds awartships!? Thats just awful.
A 380 owners version would probably suffice.

Lavezzi: Lots of people moan about the galley - personally I think its workable - especially if you make some flush sink covers and/or borrow the 'lazy susan' idea. The dinette just seems a huge waste of space to me. Great if you have lots of people over for dinner, but so hard to lounge about in.

Leopard: It is interesting to note that there is a little more involved in 'slap' than just that one simple measurement. Whilst the Leopard is certainly low, I've have not found any real anecdotal evidence to support the idea that she actually slaps more than her competitors. Of the three boats, the Leopard seems to have a slightly higher build quality.

Right here and now, i'm rating the three boats in order
1 - Leopard 40
2 - Lavezzi 40
3 - Lagoon 380ov / 410
(subject to change as I become slowly more educated)


OK - now I have a question...
Robertson & Caine / Morelli & Melvin / Someother & Fella
Who is who in this zoo? All the Leopard 40's I look at on yachtworld seem to be R&C. Did we change designers, or is Morelli a designer, and Roberston a manufacturer?
I've heard it said that the Morelli & Melvin designs are superior - superior to what - to the old designer whos name I forget - Someother & fella?


edit: Simonis - thats the older other fella!

[Dragon Lady]

As you say they all have there pluses and minuses.
They are all quite differnt and probly comes down to what boat has the right feel for you.
We always liked the feel of the Lavezzi but the others are good boats too.
Good luck in your search I don't think you can go wrong with any of these boats if you get a good one.
Just make sure you get a good survey.

[Southern Star]

I'm not sure what is so awful about athwartship berths in a catamaran. Unlike monohulls, where heeling can make them unusable when underway, there is often more fore/aft than side to side movement when underway in a cat. Yes, you may have to occasionally crawl over your partner when getting in or out of the berth-depending on who gets in and out first, but so what? In fore/aft oriented doubles (particularly in boats of about 40 feet where aft doubles are largely, if not completely enclosed on three sides), both occupants have to crawl into and out of bed. In any event, on those rare occasions when I have to crawl over my wife, I quite enjoy the incidental contact. Hell, we've actually been known to linger there a bit....

Brad