forward cockpits and picture windows

[Icarus]

A lot of cats and monos are not designed to cross oceans. IMHO any vessel which have escape hatches in case the turn turtle are inherently not safe. Cats loose stability quite quickly...
But then they are excellent for having Lates at sundown.

[tp12]

Here we go .....

Better buckle up!

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Icarus

A lot of cats and monos are not designed to cross oceans. IMHO any vessel which have escape hatches in case the turn turtle are inherently not safe. Cats loose stability quite quickly...
But then they are excellent for having Lates at sundown.

Ships carry lifeboats, yachts carry liferafts, in case they sink.

Therefore inherently unsafe?

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Icarus

A lot of cats and monos are not designed to cross oceans. IMHO any vessel which have escape hatches in case the turn turtle are inherently not safe. Cats loose stability quite quickly...
But then they are excellent for having Lates at sundown.

I would suggest you are wrong. I see many cats and monos that I assume you would suggest aren't designed to cross oceans that are doing so very successfully. If you are right then where's the proof? I've seen a variety of cats including the likes of lagoons with families onboard complete circumnavigations, the same applies to monos like beneteaus.

A boat dosent have to be overweight, double ended and dark inside to successfully go around the world ...... things change.

[44'cruisingcat]

In fact the safest vessels for crossing oceans, jet airliners, have escape hatches.

[daletournier]

I'm not sure when these arguments are going to go away, they are now ridiculous. Theory is great and reading old books etc about how a boat should be is entertaining BUT dosent real life experience trump theory?

There is absolutely no argument that modern boats cross oceans safety in large numbers, how can anyone argue this is not true it's a fact, it's happening every year, they aren't sinking, windows aren't caving in etc.... time to move on.

The boats I see getting into trouble (which isn't many) are so mostly due to age related issues that could be of sorted with good maintenance. Condition plays a bigger role than modern VS old.

Getting back to Windows. Skyscrapers have very large windows that contract and expand massively and are mostly held in by modern adhesives, you don't see them falling out.

[mark_morwood]

Originally Posted by Icarus

A lot of cats and monos are not designed to cross oceans. IMHO any vessel which have escape hatches in case the turn turtle are inherently not safe. ...

So according to you an Imoca Open 60 is not seaworthy because it has an escape hatch? I assume anything with a liferaft is also inherently unsafe, as having a liferaft suggests that you are on a boat that might sink?

Get real. Anyone who has gone to sea knows there are risks with going to sea, and then chooses to manage them as they see fit. Maybe with an escape hatch, maybe with a liferaft, maybe by choosing to sacrifice interior space to sealed buoyancy, and maybe by saying they'll constrain the size of their windows to what could be built safely in a wooden boat with bronze and glass. All are choices, but to assert rather arbitrarily that some are prudent and some are indications of unseaworthiness does not seem grounded in reality to me.

[tp12]

Originally Posted by daletournier

I'm not sure when these arguments are going to go away, they are now ridiculous.

It'll take a generational change, IMO. The 'salty old sailors' that believe that waffle really believe it and aren't going to change their minds. They'll be sitting back with smug grins on their faces reading these comments. It'll take them shuffling off before the nonsense dies out. They're not going to stop trolling multi people on this forum either ....

There's an upside for multi owners ... while these people exist it keeps demand lower for multis and values higher

Hey, Alan, did you look at forward cockpits when you were design shopping with Bob? Do you know what his thoughts might be around min length he can reasonably put one on a cat?

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by tp12

It'll take a generational change, IMO. The 'salty old sailors' that believe that waffle really believe it and aren't going to change their minds. They'll be sitting back with smug grins on their faces reading these comments. It'll take them shuffling off before the nonsense dies out. They're not going to stop trolling multi people on this forum either ....

There's an upside for multi owners ... while these people exist it keeps demand lower for multis and values higher

Hey, Alan, did you look at forward cockpits when you were design shopping with Bob? Do you know what his thoughts might be around min length he can reasonably put one on a cat?

Bob is a big fan of forward cockpits, but his are quite small, and mostly useful for working at the mast, and raising anchor. That said, his current boat has (fairly tight) seating for 4 in the front cockpit.

His older designs down to 38' included front cockpit options. (Bear in mind though, than Bob's 38 is quite a small boat sitting on long hulls) For me, I felt they impinged too much on the saloon space. Especially in the smaller boats. No question it makes going to the mast easy though. Just stroll from the aft cockpit through the saloon, open a door and you're there.
The door also provides huge ventilation for the saloon.

[daletournier]

Back on to the big windows, I had the sister ship of this anchored next to me yesterday, the 60ft version.

https://goo.gl/images/BzWkgs

I think it's a Kinetic catamaran. Very cool.

Personally (which means nothing) I like forward cockpits, Ive been on two Chris white atlantics, a smaller 42 and a 55. I thought the 42 was to smaller boat for the forward cockpit as cc44, said, it cut into living space and back deck to much, the 55 was awesome. I'd have either.

[tp12]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Bob is a big fan of forward cockpits, but his are quite small, and mostly useful for working at the mast, and raising anchor. That said, his current boat has (fairly tight) seating for 4 in the front cockpit.

His older designs down to 38' included front cockpit options. (Bear in mind though, than Bob's 38 is quite a small boat sitting on long hulls) For me, I felt they impinged too much on the saloon space. Especially in the smaller boats. No question it makes going to the mast easy though. Just stroll from the aft cockpit through the saloon, open a door and you're there.
The door also provides huge ventilation for the saloon.

Oh right, that's good to know. It was a surprise to find them on his website so I thought I should ask. I guess I'm going to have to step on a few more cats to get a feel for my version of 'acceptable saloon space/sacrifice for forward cockpit ... I was thinking it might become viable around the high 40s/50' range. Tony Grainger has designed a 50 footer with a forward cockpit for a builder to do production-the ocean renegade, have you seen that?

https://oceanrenegade.com/

The idea of a 'small, working' cockpit forward very much appeals to me. For single handing it must be one of, if not the, safest option, no? I suspect it would start to make sense space wise for me around the 45'+ mark,.

Originally Posted by daletournier

Back on to the big windows, I had the sister ship of this anchored next to me yesterday, the 60ft version.

https://goo.gl/images/BzWkgs

I think it's a Kinetic catamaran. Very cool.

Personally (which means nothing) I like forward cockpits, Ive been on two Chris white atlantics, a smaller 42 and a 55. I thought the 42 was to smaller boat for the forward cockpit as cc44, said, it cut into living space and back deck to much, the 55 was awesome. I'd have either.

I suspect we're very close in our views on this, Dale. I've always been a fan of the Atlantic Cats and Chris' approach, mostly...certainly on the 55/57 ... so cool!

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

In fact the safest vessels for crossing oceans, jet airliners, have escape hatches.

Not much use though if the airlines dont give the passengers parachutes to make their use a viable option..

[Doek]

OK, my 2 cents. I think that we "Old Timers" in our slow, dark, heavy double enders are concerned with is another Fastnet situation being set up by many current designs. Those IOR boats were sailing all over the planet, but when faced with real harsh wrather, their inherent unseaworthy flaws became tragically apparent on an all encompassing scale. Many of these lightweight boats are crossing oceans and the concern is for the time when actual weather catches several at once and we have a similar tragedy as before. The logic of "We're getting away with it everywhere" doesn't make it right or safe as has been sadly proven in the past. .

[LeeV]

Originally Posted by Icarus

A lot of cats and monos are not designed to cross oceans. IMHO any vessel which have escape hatches in case the turn turtle are inherently not safe. Cats loose stability quite quickly...
But then they are excellent for having Lates at sundown.

Jeesh....

[tp12]

Originally Posted by quackedo

OK, my 2 cents. I think that we "Old Timers" in our slow, dark, heavy double enders are concerned with is another Fastnet situation being set up by many current designs. Those IOR boats were sailing all over the planet, but when faced with real harsh wrather, their inherent unseaworthy flaws became tragically apparent on an all encompassing scale. Many of these lightweight boats are crossing oceans and the concern is for the time when actual weather catches several at once and we have a similar tragedy as before. The logic of "We're getting away with it everywhere" doesn't make it right or safe as has been sadly proven in the past. .

Originally Posted by tp12

The 'salty old sailors' that believe that waffle really believe it and aren't going to change their minds.

Who saw that post coming?! [emoji23]