forward cockpits and picture windows

[GRIT]

No argument Jim. They're not as safe as having small windows. But you have to sail to the boat's abilities, for any boat.

I'll bet those guys will power a little differently the next time they have to deal with a similar situation. Of course, there are delivery skippers, and there are delivery skippers. Some are total jerks, and will push a boat to it's limits just to see where they are. After all, they don't pay for the repairs... And, as you said, they were pushing it hard.

There are lots of broken booms caused by improperly used vangs, and broken davits due to water filled dinghies, and broken engines due to improperly matched props, or lack of maintenance. All these things are preventable, if we pay attention to the boat, and it's equipment, and learn how to use them, or maintain them.

Those with large windows will/should modify their sailing habits to accommodate for the fact that they have large windows. Just as those in small boats accommodate for that, and those in deep draft boats accommodate for that.

A bull doesn't belong in a china shop, but that doesn't devalue the bull, or the china.

Cheers.
Paul.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by GRIT

No argument Jim. They're not as safe as having small windows. But you have to sail to the boat's abilities, for any boat.

I'll bet those guys will power a little differently the next time they have to deal with a similar situation. Of course, there are delivery skippers, and there are delivery skippers. Some are total jerks, and will push a boat to it's limits just to see where they are. After all, they don't pay for the repairs... And, as you said, they were pushing it hard.

There are lots of broken booms caused by improperly used vangs, and broken davits due to water filled dinghies, and broken engines due to improperly matched props, or lack of maintenance. All these things are preventable, if we pay attention to the boat, and it's equipment, and learn how to use them, or maintain them.

Those with large windows will/should modify their sailing habits to accommodate for the fact that they have large windows. Just as those in small boats accommodate for that, and those in deep draft boats accommodate for that.

A bull doesn't belong in a china shop, but that doesn't devalue the bull, or the china.

Cheers.
Paul.

Paul, I don't disagree with your ideas here, but we were discussing production catamarans with vulnerable design features. These boats are often bought by inexperienced folks, people who don't have the experience to understand the nuances of what you say... and my understanding is that the builders and vendors do nothing to educate them. I bet a good lawyer could build a "latent fault in design" sort of case in court had it gone that way (and perhaps it did... never heard the outcome, or even if the boat made it to the show).

The incident I reported was years ago and my memory is a bit vague (fancy that!), but the crew was experienced and IIRC did not feel that they were operating the boat unsafely. Some wave strikes on the windows were common events and apparently are on most such boats. These were not up to the job.

So, I still think there is some danger with big windows, sliding doors and large bathtubs on the foredeck.

Jim

[GRIT]

Hi Jim. I'm not disagreeing with you. There is danger there.

But there's danger with everything we do, it's up to us to mitigate risk. I don't know about that particular boat, but I somehow doubt we'll be reading of a similar situation with a sailing cat. Motoring at 15-20 knots into oncoming waves, isn't going to happen with these, like a power cat.

Take this as friendly discourse, in case my lack of smileys causes a misunderstanding of my tone.

I don't think Lambourgini (sp?) should have to educate their buyers, any more than Mossberg should have to educate theirs. It's not Leopard's fault that some youtube wannabe, with no experience, goes out and takes a front cockpit boat to Cape Horn, in August, under full sail, and full motor, directly into the oncoming sea. I think a buyer should be responsible for what he/she buys. Caveat Emptor, and all that.

Then we'd have to have Gunboat warn folks about all that sail up there, and outremer too. Uneducated folk, sailing one of these, could well end up upside down.

Cheers.
Paul.

[GRIT]

PS.

I'm not saying companies should be allowed to sell inferior products, claiming that their top of the line. But I don't see this as an inferior product, it just doesn't suit your purposes (or mine).

I see no misleading advertising on Leopard's sites, or from their salesmen, regards the boat being fit for cape horn. The boat is what it is. It suits it's design parameters, which I assume is charter in the semi protected waters of the caribbean, and the mediterranean. It's probably just fine for crossing oceans, on the milk run. Alaska, Greenland, Argentina, Chile... maybe not.

Peace.
Paul.

[44'cruisingcat]

A trawler crossing the bar at Yamba got it wrong, had it's (presumably seaworthy) windows caved in, doing over $100,000 damage.

Ships sink in storms.

The reality is, if the crew stuffs up badly enough, the type of boat isn't going to make a lot of difference.

[bluenomads]

Originally Posted by owly

I consider large windows a dis qualifier when it comes to "blue water" sailing yachts. The idea that they are made to withstand a serious wave strike is an assertion that goes far beyond being merely dubious. Windows and hatches are extremely vulnerable, even small ones.

Fortunately there are people with actual sailing and overall boating experience who disagree with such a silly statement. I suggest you look at the motor Dashews, especially the videos of sea trials. Big windows, properly designed, getting hammered in safety from a multiple round-the-world designer and boater.

[contrail]

Originally Posted by smj

Completely filled the Leopard 44 forward cockpit holds over 6300 lbs of water and takes 45 seconds to drain. If the seas are big enough to fill the forward cockpit with water that may be the longest 45 seconds of your life. Once filled the chances of getting more water increase dramatically as you now have the equivalent of a Ford F450 truck parked on your foredeck.

i thought the same until I met someone who had exactly that experience on exactly that boat. He said the water drained so quickly that they never felt endangered.

[contrail]

In the days (now gone) when almost all the Leopards were delivered to charter bases, all over the world, at all times of the year (including hurricane seasons), on schedules, they racked up over 4 million miles without serious incident. That practical experience is worth way more than any amount of theoretical or armchair discussion, in my opinion. They did, eventually, lose one boat in a hurricane in the Indian Ocean, but that was eventually deemed to have been caused by very poor weather routing and the experienced crew being under extreme pressure to follow a schedule at an extremely inappropriate time of the year. A Voyage Cat was lost on a delivery to a boat show in Seattle, when it's captain chose to press on in a winter storm off the Oregon Coast. In a way, both these accidents may have been partly attributable to the extreme seaworthiness of the designs, and resulting overconfidence. But the designs did safely sail millions of miles in all sorts of weather. Fact.

[smj]

Originally Posted by contrail

i thought the same until I met someone who had exactly that experience on exactly that boat. He said the water drained so quickly that they never felt endangered.

The 45 second quote comes from Leopard.

[squid636]

I am fairly new to sailing but doesn't this document show that Leopard 44's are certified for offshore sailing by the IMCI and the ABYC.

https://www.leopardcatamarans.com/si...ardCockpit.pdf

Rated and certified for offshore sailing

"Upon detailed inspection of the design, and the build practices employed in producing the Leopard 44, both the International Marine Certification Institute (IMCI) and the National Marine Manufacturers Association confirmed she was built to the high standards set forth by International Standards Organization (ISO) and the American Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC). Understanding that the yachts were now rated and certified for offshore passage making, it was time to bring this new catamaran with the forward cockpit to our customers."

Also this is from a first hand account of a delivery captain for a Leopard 44:

"Q: What were the highest wind speeds and wave heights that you saw? What was the prevailing wind direction?
A: We had true wind speeds gusting into the lower 70s, but between 50-60 was frequent, from NW’lies to SW’lies, hence we would keep the weather on the quarter, and keep apparent wind speeds down. But usually the depressions would not last for more than 24 hours, so the seas would only pick up to 5-7 m, mostly a more or less comfortable, long period swell, which would push the boat along nicely, giving us some surf speeds up to 18 knots on the odd occasion. After the passing of a depression we would sometimes be becalmed slightly for a day or two, giving the sea a good chance to subside again."

https://blog.leopardcatamarans.com/d...n-a-leopard-44

[danielamartindm]

While I have seen no trends of cats lost to wave action shattering the sheer expanse of windows on them, it's a valid safety question. Years ago, Pacific Seacraft set the standard for minimal port glass. I think that weather services have made passages safer since then and vessels have morphed in form to afford greater comfort and to address the conditions they will likely face, rather than the survival conditions that they likely won't. I knew sailors years ago with a mindset of "just going, and dealing with whatever weather presents itself;" I don't know anyone so cavalier with Mother Nature today.

[daletournier]

Aren't hatches on our boats large windows?

[contrail]

Originally Posted by smj

The 45 second quote comes from Leopard.

I imagine that it's rare for the whole front cockpit to fill to the brim, what with the boat's motion, and, of course, if it drains in 45 seconds, then it's half empty in 22, which would be seem to be very comforting!

[smj]

What would the boats motion be like if it did take on over 6300 lbs. of water? That to me would be troublesome and there’s no way it ads to seaworthiness but definitely detracts. I’m sure everyone has to find their own comfort level.

[owenrms]

Hi all - we have a Leopard 48 2017 model. In July we rounded Hatteras and had un-forecasted 45kts on the starboard quarter with seas up to 20 feet. We were taking water over the helm station and of course into the forward cockpit. Not once did we feel unsafe in the boat. It is solidly built and the front window and the drains in the forward cockpit had no issues dealing with the conditions. The same could not be said about the humans on board: biggrin:

The boat will cope with a lot more than humans will that is for sure. On a related note I was initially concerned about the forward flat window but spent four hours in the factory in South Africa examining how the boat is put together - needless to say I was impressed enough to buy one.