forward cockpits and picture windows

[Cheechako]

Perfectly valid thoughts and no need to think it's Catamaran bashing just because it is brought up. Waves bend even lifeline stancions! Boating tradition holds large windows are bad.
But every boat is a compromise, you go with what you are willing to risk.
-Cats flip, but they often dont sink.
-Monos sink, but rarely flip for long.
-Spade rudders do fail, but steer much better.
-Cats ride high and light rather than bashing thru large waves... until...

I am a former cat and mono owner, I fail to understand why cat owners get all testy when the obvious is mentioned....

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by owly

What do you think allowed the bridge deck cabin on rainmaker to be completely ripped off?...

Being left abandoned in the north atlantic for over a year.

[Lepke]

Power or sail, mono or cat, you might ask commercial fishermen about big forward windows. Especially in the same boat size. You don't go to sea planning on bad weather, but it does happen.

[Hardhead]

Originally Posted by rallyman1122

One has to wonder what prompts such posts. Is it the need to start another condomaran vs performance cats debate and clusterfluck? Or is the OP just bored?

I think the OP just wants to talk boats, and stir up a discussion. Anyone can join in, or click past. Most people are here because they like to talk boats.

Why are you attacking his character? Just click past if you don't prefer to join. Most people don't get stressed out by forum posts, or take personal affront - thank heavens.

[Thalas]

Originally Posted by Hardhead

I think the OP just wants to talk boats, and stir up a discussion. Anyone can join in, or click past. Most people are here because they like to talk boats.

Why are you attacking his character? Just click past if you don't prefer to join. Most people don't get stressed out by forum posts, or take personal affront - thank heavens.

I’m not a fan of personal attacks. I guess there is a question of OP’s intentions. He didn’t start a nuanced discussion about the blue water safety of “condomorans.” He said they were “anything but seaworthy.” That’s obviously a ridiculous statement with no bearing in reality.

The Gunboat was deliberately taken out in a storm. It sunk because of hubris. Any boat in the lineup of the big 3 condo makers is an incredibly safe and seaworthy vessel. Add to that, modern technologies that help avoid storms, ais, and real-time communication and there has never been a safer time to be a cat sailor.

Unless anyone can post real evidence where large windows in the design of a boat have caused a dangerous situation in multiple instances, I’d say the debate was over before it began.

What I CAN attest to is how SAFE it is to have such incredible visibility at sea at all times. I’ve not sailed in significant storms, but the Caribbean can be crowded in places and to always see the horizon makes the large salon windows a welcome safety feature.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by Thalas

I’m not a fan of personal attacks. I guess there is a question of OP’s intentions. He didn’t start a nuanced discussion about the blue water safety of “condomorans.” He said they were “anything but seaworthy.” That’s obviously a ridiculous statement with no bearing in reality.

The Gunboat was deliberately taken out in a storm. It sunk because of hubris. Any boat in the lineup of the big 3 condo makers is an incredibly safe and seaworthy vessel. Add to that, modern technologies that help avoid storms, ais, and real-time communication and there has never been a safer time to be a cat sailor.

Unless anyone can post real evidence where large windows in the design of a boat have caused a dangerous situation in multiple instances, I’d say the debate was over before it began.

What I CAN attest to is how SAFE it is to have such incredible visibility at sea at all times. I’ve not sailed in significant storms, but the Caribbean can be crowded in places and to always see the horizon makes the large salon windows a welcome safety feature.

I can attest that while testing a brand new custom aluminum boat with large forward windows, the window was caved in by seawater causing a hospital trip and weeks of recovery before returning to work. But the need for evidence needs go no further than looking at SS stancions bent over 30-45 degrees from seawater really.

[Hardhead]

Originally Posted by owly

...There is no question that catamarans are inherently safer, sailed properly... One only has to look at storm events like the Queen's Birthday Storm in the Tasman Sea to see this, but picture windows and forward cockpits are just tempting fate IMHO.

H.W.

Seems fair and balanced to me.

Of course, large steel trawlers, and ships, have windows stove in pretty much every year - just a fact. Is this supposed to be some kind of crazy third rail when discussing expensive catamarans or something?

[LoudMusic]

Maybe it's just me ...

[Thalas]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

I can attest that while testing a brand new custom aluminum boat with large forward windows, the window was caved in by seawater causing a hospital trip and weeks of recovery before returning to work. But the need for evidence needs go no further than looking at SS stancions bent over 30-45 degrees from seawater really.

One bad design or one case of poor construction is correlative, not causative.

There are THOUSANDS of these cats on the water with large salon windows. If the thesis is that large windows are dangerous, a one-off outlier is hardly evidence when there is so much trend data showing them to be safe.

[category4jay]

Originally Posted by smj

Yes I watch some of the YouTube channels and have yet to see any of them sailing through a life threatening storm. s?

Check out some SV IMPI VIDEO as he takes his L440 out in some serious action. May not be life threatening but the L440 looks like it’s handling it with ease.

[smj]

Originally Posted by LoudMusic

Maybe it's just me ...

Can’t understand this reaction as this thread isn’t out of control and to me the discussion is informative

[smj]

Originally Posted by category4jay

Check out some SV IMPI VIDEO as he takes his L440 out in some serious action. May not be life threatening but the L440 looks like it’s handling it with ease.

Yes, and from what I read they did quite a few modifications to Impi to make her more seaworthy before departing. Would be interesting to know what the modifications were.

[Thalas]

Originally Posted by smj

Yes, and from what I read they did quite a few modifications to Impi to make her more seaworthy before departing. Would be interesting to know what the modifications were.

I can't speak to Impi or other Lagoons, but I do know that there are Leopard owners who have fabricated fiberglass barriers to the forward cockpit that can be put into place during bad weather so water can't collect. They are essentially flat (plus stringers for rigidity) so they tuck under the cockpit roof when not in use. I would imagine that would ameliorate any concerns for the 0.0026% of the time when needed and they still get to enjoy their forward cockpit 99.9974% of the time.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Thalas

One bad design or one case of poor construction is correlative, not causative.

There are THOUSANDS of these cats on the water with large salon windows. If the thesis is that large windows are dangerous, a one-off outlier is hardly evidence when there is so much trend data showing them to be safe.

No dog in this fight, but I'd point out that very, very few of those "thousands" of cats ever experience even full gales, let alone survival storms.

Ramtha survived the Queens Birthday storm, but she lacked the forward well and extreme forward windows or forward sliding doors, so not much of supporting evidence there.

Condo cats surely fill a need in the cruising boat world, but such design features as those under discussion do not add to their safety at sea.

Jim

[owly]

Let me point out that I did not say that condo cats "were" unseaworthy, I said that with their huge windows they looked anything but seaworthy.


I am absolutely sold on catamarans as the safest and most stable of boats if designed and sailed right. There is a saying about either you taking care of the boat, or the boat taking care of you. The best of boats take care of you, and the best sailors take care of the boat.



Anybody who seriously thinks that the top got ripped off the Gunboat without the water stoving things in first isn't in my opinion being at all realistic.



The far smaller Woods Eclipse (33'LOA) that was abandoned in a survival storm off Central America was found many months later, completely intact, except for having been plundered.
A far smaller boat, but with reasonable portlights, a boat obviously designed to be seaworthy. This is not a "performance boat", it's a voyaging boat. Note that the portlights are small enough to reasonably be covered. The rig wasn't lost.... probably because it was a more reasonable rig. The storm was more than the people could take, not more than the boat could take, much like the cats that were abandoned in the Queen's birthday storm. None of them went down, or were lost except one that was intentionally rammed at the owner's request.


The sea didn't get inside this boat and rip it apart.



I didn't start this to condemn catamarans in general... Not at all. Condomarans have their place, and you can cross oceans with them considering the quality of weather forecasting and their speed. In my book a condo belongs on a cliff overlooking the ocean watching the power of the ocean smashing on the shore through picture windows. Monohulls often have portlights and sea hatches stove in or ripped off, and while in theory the ballast will right the boat if capsized, in many if not most cases I've read about, the boat is lost in the end due to water taken on.

In today's world it is possible to circumnavigate the globe.... not nonstop.... and never encounter truly dangerous weather by making the right choices, and sailing a boat that has sufficient speed.
One major difference between the Gunboat that was abandoned and the Eclipse, was that the Gunboat had a bent rudder stock, and jammed rudder, and that's not trivial. Neither boat capsized... an issue that has been overblown in multihulls... Read the Sports Illustrated article He ho and Up She Rises if you want to read the extreme viewpoint.
This is about what I consider poor design (picture windows)... at least in so far as true seaworthiness. I will grant that a front cockpit if it drains well is not necessarily a "killer".... but things like sliding glass doors and picture windows???

These boats are designed for bare boat charter in ideal conditions. People DO circumnavigate in them, they do sail the coconut milk run, the ARC, etc. Would I want to sail around Cape Horn, or round the Horn of Africa where the Aghulas current meets the storms from the Antarctic... No.... Not without some sort of protection for those huge picture windows. A violent ocean viewed through a picture window is picturesque until it decides to come into your "living room".



I'm just advocating for sensible "windows" and doors......




H.W.