Forward Cockpits

[Tupaia]

I have just read the following thread about Windelo
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3825351

I thought a wider discussion of forward cockpits would be worth opening.

I have just made a 1500NM passage that passed through a nasty low pressure system, the above thread and the idea of a forward cockpit made me think.

This started off as exciting reaching at 20+ knots (max speed 22.9knots) with 4 reefs in the main and scrap of furled jib. Low 30's wind speed and waves building on the top of the long swells. Running with an in hospitable coast downwind was not an option. Did this for about 18 hours during which time the saloon windows were under constant car wash type conditions and there were frequent green water deluges over the coach roof requiring me to duck behind my bulkhead mounted helm, but still sufficient to fill the lower half my aft cockpit with water. The bimini clears had already be tucked away as they would not have survived such and onslaught.

Eventually the sea state became more angry, shorter waves and bigger steeper swells 4-5 metres with wind in the high 30's up to 40 knots. Time to park the boat. Rounded up in a minor lull furled the jib and stopped. Then spent 32 hours fore reaching in relative calm making about 1/2 a knot but with the occasional really powerful growler smacking the bow and engulfing the entire front half of the boat. I just couldn't see any possible reason to want a forward cockpit.

Now I don't really have a problem with open bridgedeck cats where there is no structure to resist waves breaking over the boat, apart from being very wet and uncomfortable. But, forward cockpits require an engineering solution, that must add considerable weight to a problem that is of the designers own making by the very fact of having a forward cockpit. I can see that it might add an extra thrill to regatta sailing but i just can't see it for self reliance and seaworthiness crossing oceans.

[Franziska]

I'd not want one.

The only advantage in my view is that if moored often, stern to = Mediterranean style, not everyone looks at your dinner plate.

At anchor, the wind always comes from the bow. You're always in the breeze. It's much nicer to sit behind the doghouse.

Offshore, you're much more exposed in a fwd cockpit.

Racing inshore, it might perhaps be advantageous, not sure though.

[smj]

I look at the Leopard 44 forward cockpit which holds over 700 gallons of water weighing over 6,000 lbs. it supposedly fully drains in about 45 seconds, but in those 45 seconds would it become overwhelmed with more water coming aboard, keeping in mind that until that water drains it is still compromised with the additional weight.
In the conditions you were experiencing do you believe a forward cockpit would have had the time to drain before the next deluge? I’m sure they could design a forward cockpit with either a grated floor or even trampoline that would drain very quickly if needed.

[Chotu]

I had one and deleted it.

It was purely from a layout perspective.

It was like a large phone booth or DJ booth in the salon. I didn’t like the amount of space it took up or the fact that I’d have to open up a door in bad weather to use the sail controls…. And I mean rain. Just getting rain in the salon going in and out seems not so great, never mind saltwater splashes.

That’s where my sail control table/plinth idea was born.

I figured why not make the whole forward cockpit part of the salon instead of something separate?

Now, I know my sistership has one and has no trouble at all with it for thousands and thousands of miles. It’s like a once in a lifetime to get a blast of green water over these boats. But I’m sure it can happen as in the story in the first post. Huge cockpit drains are a must.

I had 100 square inches of straight drain to the ocean in mine.

Still, it seemed not fun to have to get wet or get the salon wet. Plus, better to not have to go outside at all in winter sailing.

So, I deleted mine.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by Chotu

I had one and deleted it.

That’s where my sail control table/plinth idea was born.

I figured why not make the whole forward cockpit part of the salon instead of something separate?

The Broadblue 550 used a similar approach. You are right if you go for this arrangement why go outside at all.

[Nicholson58]

I like my 58 foot center cockpit ketch. High and always dry.

#2 above pretty well covers it for cats.

[Fenestron]

Thanks for the mention .
So I just updated my original post with links to an article from the owner of the first 50' hull about what it was like sailing from the Windelo's forward helm in the harsh conditions they faced, where they sailed, etc. I've linked the article below if anyone cares to read it.


https://www.windelo-catamaran.com/en...atlantic-tour/

TLDR: Owner of first Windelo 50 after sailing "in all weather conditions and at all latitudes", "Now that I’ve tried it, I would find going back to and aft helm station unbearable. When it was closed, we were perfectly protected from the spray and wind in the forward cockpit. Everyone is safe in the cockpit, and in all weather conditions, including young children. And in calmer weather, you can open the doors and enjoy sailing as if you were outside."

[Matt Johnson]

Imagine if this fwd cockpit wasn't enclosed - the cabin would by five or six feet aft of the mast. I think that's why it works well on this design and not on something like a Leopard. A large open foredeck with the bridgedeck so far aft puts everything in the safer zone behind the center of the boat. Same as on a Chris White Atlantic.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Fenestron

Thanks for the mention .
So I just updated my original post with links to an article from the owner of the first 50' hull about what it was like sailing from the Windelo's forward helm in the harsh conditions they faced, where they sailed, etc. I've linked the article below if anyone cares to read it.


https://www.windelo-catamaran.com/en...atlantic-tour/

TLDR: Owner of first Windelo 50 after sailing "in all weather conditions and at all latitudes", "Now that I’ve tried it, I would find going back to and aft helm station unbearable. When it was closed, we were perfectly protected from the spray and wind in the forward cockpit. Everyone is safe in the cockpit, and in all weather conditions, including young children. And in calmer weather, you can open the doors and enjoy sailing as if you were outside."

Another sail control table/plinth.

I’m not sure I would classify this as a forward cockpit. That’s part of the salon. Even though you have a divider between the two.

I think a forward cockpit is more like what you see on a gunboat or a Chris white Atlantic


Like this:



Your design is far superior. And I’m a little prejudice because I chose the same thing

[Fenestron]

It seems like a forward cockpit to me because the Windelo is designed to take on and expell water, separate from the saloon via bulkhead (sliding door) and perhaps most importantly, the helm is located at the pivot point of the mast which I would wager is the defining criteria of a forward cockpit. TBH though, I'm talking out of my ass here, and speaking purely from speculation and observation .

I will say this though, generally speaking I had written off forward helms because of the reasons everyone else have listed. I don't want my saloon swallowed up by a chair/station and I don't want to get hammered by the elements/wind. The Windelo is the first and so far only forward helm design I've seen and I'd approve of.

HH's new 60+ models feature forward helm options but like others have mentioned, it too is a "get your face melted by wind and rain" situation.

[Chotu]

Interesting. I don’t define it the same. Ha ha ha.

I guess these things are still kind of new in a lot of ways and we are still splitting hairs trying to define them.

My helm is exactly at the pivot point of the mast. Right at the base of the mast, at the main structural beam, but starboard of centerline.

I’d not call it a forward cockpit because it’s part of the salon. Lol.


Here’s mine. I’m not showing all of the winches and everything yet because it is still in the process of being built. But just to the left in this picture, that’s where the sail control table is going.

Note: pink foam is up for Florida sunshine/heat deflection in this picture and things are being worked on. Excuse the unfinished state






I’m not arguing. Because I don’t think there is a real definition yet. I think we are grasping here.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Chotu

…It’s like a once in a lifetime to get a blast of green water over these boats. ...

Don’t kid yourself - go offshore and sail across or against the swells and you will have green water (blue water?) with every second or third wave over the front beam or through the trampolines and hitting against or going over the salon. As for spray off the bows - anytime you are moving a bit faster, even in calm seas. At least judging from our salon front windows, which cannot be open when we’re sailing except in light conditions.

And I’m still not sure about visibility aft for docking or Med mooring with a front cockpit, regardless of whether open or enclosed. A couple of Atlantics that I’ve been on have got a secondary steering wheel and engine controls on their aft bulkhead.

The reality of short handed offshore and even inshore sailing is that the autopilot is steering and the human crew only needs to mess with the sail and rig controls, so the position of the wheel doesn’t really matter. The working cockpit however, should be reasonably habitable in all conditions. I’m not sure an external front cockpit qualifies as such.

The biggest question I’ve got with front cockpits is where do you socialise when you’ve got guests, either at sea or at an anchorage? The Atlantics I’ve seen have tiny aft decks and relatively cramped salons due to the front cockpit, and that front cockpit isn’t all that big either (and is wet while sailing). Where do you hang out when the trampolines are too wet to lounge out there?

But hey, if you can design sail and rig handling systems such that you don’t ever have to leave your salon work area whilst sailing then you’ve nailed it.

[Fenestron]

Very fair points fxykty, and I worry the helms will get soaked. I've seen a lot of sailing videos were exactly as you describe, the waves just pummel the front saloon glass. I'm curious to know why they didn't create a drain just forward and act of the roll up window so as the water hit it the water could run down into a channel. Do you think this would be more effective in your opinion?



As far as visibility goes, your on point. In that article I linked the owners of their windelo 50 said it's difficult when starboard docking to communicate to aft starboard side. I wonder if perhaps Windelo could reinforce the bulkhead and allow for a sliding window like in the SeaWind? Regardless, I had thought maybe one of those remotely operating docking systems would work in that case.


As far as your point on socialization, I would say check out my Windelo post. It actually looks like they have that factor nailed down pretty well imo but as for other forward helm stations, I guess it depends on the boat. The HH 60's forward helm is totally cut off so that kinda sucks for sure.



Finally your last point about sailing from a protected helm, with everything at your finger tips, I think that's what makes the Windelo's forward helm different in that it APPEARS to have done it correctly.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Don’t kid yourself - go offshore and sail across or against the swells and you will have green water (blue water?) with every second or third wave over the front beam or through the trampolines and hitting against or going over the salon. As for spray off the bows - anytime you are moving a bit faster, even in calm seas. At least judging from our salon front windows, which cannot be open when we’re sailing except in light conditions.

And I’m still not sure about visibility aft for docking or Med mooring with a front cockpit, regardless of whether open or enclosed. A couple of Atlantics that I’ve been on have got a secondary steering wheel and engine controls on their aft bulkhead.

The reality of short handed offshore and even inshore sailing is that the autopilot is steering and the human crew only needs to mess with the sail and rig controls, so the position of the wheel doesn’t really matter. The working cockpit however, should be reasonably habitable in all conditions. I’m not sure an external front cockpit qualifies as such.

The biggest question I’ve got with front cockpits is where do you socialise when you’ve got guests, either at sea or at an anchorage? The Atlantics I’ve seen have tiny aft decks and relatively cramped salons due to the front cockpit, and that front cockpit isn’t all that big either (and is wet while sailing). Where do you hang out when the trampolines are too wet to lounge out there?

But hey, if you can design sail and rig handling systems such that you don’t ever have to leave your salon work area whilst sailing then you’ve nailed it.

It's just reports from my sistership after several years offshore going between the Caribbean and Canada.

Agreed about the Atlantics. The smaller ones especially. But I guess their philosophy is to entertain inside. When I have visited people on the Atlantic 42 (the small one) we were in the salon. It felt natural and it was pretty nice to enjoy the air conditioning too.

But the forward cockpit being there or not in a Gunboat style layout doesn't affect the aft deck seating area. (nor does the inside control station on my boat). In fact, it gives you even more room on the aft deck there since there is no helm, running rigging or helm seat back there. It's just a bunch of seating and tables, day beds. The forward cockpit is (except on leapords and stuff) kept to a minimum and is just a spot to control sails from and potentially steer from. It's not a space to hang out. It's all business typically.

Docking visibility in all ways is hindered to an extent. Trade offs. I recently docked the sterns right up to a dock to unload the mast. I couldn't see ehrn they touched the dock. I also try to dock on the starboard side as often as possible for better visibility. It's true. It's a bit harder to see everything when docking from the salon.

I agree about the external front cockpit being a waterfall to stand in during some conditions and no fun in rain either. One of many reasons I deleted mine, changing my mind after having built it. It's now replaced with better access to the roof via some steps

[Dockhead]

I'd want to try it before forming an opinion. I crossed the Atlantic last year on a boat which had what I thought were unacceptably exposed helm positions (a Discovery 67) but in real life, as opposed to theory, they were great. I've looked at Chris White Atlantic 57's and actually considered buying one at one point. Never sailed on one, however. My guess is this would probably be OK provided you can control the boat from inside the salon when the weather gets hairy.