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Old 03-01-2017, 21:58   #46
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Re: Flybridge in adverse conditions

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Originally Posted by Cockeye429 View Post
We are looking at a lagoon 450F and I'm wondering how do people deal with not having a hardtop and a enclosure for sail in adverse conditions. Thanks
So the question asked by the OP was about specific ways to overcome a problem on a specific model boat (Lagoon 450).

Quote:"I'm simply attempting to point out some facts on the issue at hand, & am far from the only one who sees that there are pro's & con's to flybridges. Personally I'd prefer other options for steering stations."

Good you are perfectly entitled to prefer other steering staion options, what that has to do with answering the original question eludes me and probably the OP as well.

Quote: "The other point is that while I donít know exactly how heavy the factory hard tops are on some of these boats."

Got that one correct I agree with you that you appear not to know.


Quote:"But if it saves half or more over the factory version, then youíre removing over 100lbs, 15í or so above the WL. "

Do you honestly believe 100lbs removed or added to 46,297 lb boat is going to make a very noticeable difference. I have had up to 8 people sitting up there while sailing and that would add up to an aprox extra 1,000 lb and I honestly did not notice any difference.


I am left to assume these facts you are pointing out where gleaned from the owners daughter of a Lagoon 450.

If somebody asks how to overcome being out in the weather at the exposed helm on a Catana, I do not jump in and tell them they should by Lagoon with a fly bridge because it is what I prefer.

Even though I am far from the only one who prefers a Fly Bridge cat and I can also see that there are pro's & con's to flybridges as well.

Different strokes for different folks.

Uncivilized: I would enjoy buying you a pint, & seeing your resume but like your Fly bridge catamaran sailing experience, your whereabouts in the world are also absent from your profile at present.

You never never know we may bump glasses one day instead of heads.

I must agree with Tuskie "Definitely don't wish to be in a flybridge under mortar attack.

Under mortar attack is probably one of the few times I would prefer to be on a mono hull (smaller target me thinks) but that's a war for another thread
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Old 03-01-2017, 23:15   #47
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Re: Flybridge in adverse conditions

Very interesting opinions! These who have flybridge on their cats simply love them. Some of these who doesn't have flybridge think they are dangerous lol.

Best comment: "Do you honestly believe 100lbs (or 1000 in case of bigger cat) removed or added to 46,297 lb boat (or 70-90K lb in case of bigger condomarans) is going to make a very noticeable difference?" Even if it's located 2m away from old CG, how far it'll move CG? I bet - not far.

I personally love flybridge for all the reasons mentioned by these who have flybridge on their boats.
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Old 03-01-2017, 23:32   #48
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Re: Flybridge in adverse conditions

The thing about a flybridge to me is that it is another thing that screams - NO! - when it comes to multihull design. Then again Lagoon and the other condocat makers keep on breaking accepted design rules.

For decades I have been told to keep things light - the Lagoon 450 is 15 tonnes in lightship - GAWD - that is heavier than the Beneteau Oceanis 45 - it is 10 tonnes lightship - a cat that is 50% heavier than a similar length mono. Tell me it aint so. That is just not what we were told for decades by our best designers and builders.

I get the vertical windows, a trend we have all copied in our latest designs but the flybridge, like the displacement flies against all of the reasons us old multi sailors got into our boats - because they sailed so well and felt so good when they did. We didn't care so much about interiors, or finishes, or motors - just the sailing.

So these boats do not make sense to me. I feel like an old fossil but this branch of the cat evolutionary tree seems to be thriving, in spite of all the "wrong" things these boats do.

Still, these boats go against so much of what was thought to be safe that it should be stated every now and then that putting weight and windage up high is never a good thing. They will have to prove themselves before we can rewrite the textbooks on multihull seamanship and add a section on heavy cats. That used to be an oxymoron.

Still fair winds and smooth seas - wave when we cross wakes.

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Old 04-01-2017, 00:35   #49
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Re: Flybridge in adverse conditions

"the Lagoon 450 is 15 tonnes in lightship - GAWD - that is heavier than the Beneteau Oceanis 45 - it is 10 tonnes lightship - a cat that is 50% heavier than a similar length mono."

Yes but the Lagoon is a lot more boat than the 45 Beneteau in floor space, apart from the fact it is 3 stories tall.





"Tell me it ain't so. That is just not what we were told for decades by our best designers and builders."

The best the world had to offer used to think it was flat but they all came around eventually. Well most of them anyway.

"We didn't care so much about interiors, or finishes, or motors - just the sailing."

For a race boat that is perfect, but for something to convince my partner to give up the life ashore for, required just the odd bit of extra comfort as well as enough space to swing both of her proverbial cats in.

It surprised me putting the two boats together above how much space there is on the Bene 45, but then based on my few looks into the darker side of this forum, the mono hull sections there are many who deride the Beneteau for much the same reasons the Lagoons, FP's etc come in for criticism in the multihull section, go figure.
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Old 04-01-2017, 14:56   #50
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Re: Flybridge in adverse conditions

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Originally Posted by ranchero76 View Post
Very interesting opinions! These who have flybridge on their cats simply love them. Some of these who doesn't have flybridge think they are dangerous lol.

Pretty much the same can be said of multihulls in general.....
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Old 05-01-2017, 13:19   #51
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Re: Flybridge in adverse conditions

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Originally Posted by category4jay View Post
I agree. Contact Capt. Brent on IMPI. I'm sure he's loaded with the experience. He seems to love sailing up on the flybridge in rough water.
He's very approachable on Facebook. I've had some good conversations about the fly bridge, weather, and how well she points compared to other multihulls.
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Old 05-01-2017, 13:24   #52
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Re: Flybridge in adverse conditions

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
its risky moving from the 'cockpit' to the side deck and then up the steps to the controls.. poorly set up grab stations...
FWIW this has been addressed on the 450s; the stairs are in the cockpit now.

No, I do not have either of these but have looked at both in recent boat shows
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Old 05-01-2017, 13:49   #53
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Re: Flybridge in adverse conditions

Yep Lotek we've became friends the other night on Facebook with impi thanks
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Old 05-01-2017, 16:41   #54
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Re: Flybridge in adverse conditions

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulinOz View Post
So the question asked by the OP was about specific ways to overcome a problem on a specific model boat (Lagoon 450).

Quote:"I'm simply attempting to point out some facts on the issue at hand, & am far from the only one who sees that there are pro's & con's to flybridges. Personally I'd prefer other options for steering stations."

Good you are perfectly entitled to prefer other steering staion options, what that has to do with answering the original question eludes me and probably the OP as well.

Quote: "The other point is that while I donít know exactly how heavy the factory hard tops are on some of these boats."

Got that one correct I agree with you that you appear not to know.


Quote:"But if it saves half or more over the factory version, then youíre removing over 100lbs, 15í or so above the WL. "

Do you honestly believe 100lbs removed or added to 46,297 lb boat is going to make a very noticeable difference. I have had up to 8 people sitting up there while sailing and that would add up to an aprox extra 1,000 lb and I honestly did not notice any difference.


I am left to assume these facts you are pointing out where gleaned from the owners daughter of a Lagoon 450.

If somebody asks how to overcome being out in the weather at the exposed helm on a Catana, I do not jump in and tell them they should by Lagoon with a fly bridge because it is what I prefer.

Even though I am far from the only one who prefers a Fly Bridge cat and I can also see that there are pro's & con's to flybridges as well.

Different strokes for different folks.

Uncivilized: I would enjoy buying you a pint, & seeing your resume but like your Fly bridge catamaran sailing experience, your whereabouts in the world are also absent from your profile at present.

You never never know we may bump glasses one day instead of heads.

I must agree with Tuskie "Definitely don't wish to be in a flybridge under mortar attack.

Under mortar attack is probably one of the few times I would prefer to be on a mono hull (smaller target me thinks) but that's a war for another thread
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Mocking, sarcasm, implications of idiocy, out of context quotes, etc. do not provide much incentive for a genuine reply. Such concepts are usually well understood by the time one figures out how to ride a bicycle.
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Old 05-01-2017, 16:56   #55
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pirate Re: Flybridge in adverse conditions

Quote:
Originally Posted by lotek View Post
FWIW this has been addressed on the 450s; the stairs are in the cockpit now.

No, I do not have either of these but have looked at both in recent boat shows
I'm poor and can only afford OP's.. (if paid) so never go window shopping..
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Old 20-01-2017, 20:40   #56
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Re: Flybridge in adverse conditions

I can offer my opinion and experiences....

....we also have a Lagoon450F, and we also have the hardtop bimini and full enclosure.

In general, I love the flybridge from the first time I experienced one and have ever since. The visibility up there is just incomparable to the monos I had before and compared to the raised or corner cockpits I have tried. You can see fishing pots so much more easily, water color changes, everything. With the operating "sunroof" you can get a decent view of the port aft when docking as well. As for seeing around the headsail, it doesn't seem to be an issue to me.

The stairs on the L450! Huge difference. I recently helped deliver a L500 400nm in 47 hours, a great fast boat. But the L500 had totally exposed stair access to the flybridge and relatively low lifelines, I actually felt nervous transitioning. But with my L450, I can easily go up and down with a book in one hand a drink in another and get my balance with my hips on the inside following stairs. A subtle detail that I didn't appreciate when I bought her, but huge in my mind now.

We originally had no bimini at all. That sucked from just plain too much sun. Then I got the soft binini. Still sucked, it never maintained its setup as firmly as I would like and had to be adjusted too often. Also the wind and spray to windward were always present.

Then we got the glorious hardtop and now with the wrap around enclosures. Amazing. Truly amazing. Recently we were going to windward with 25-28 kts apparent, and I was thinking huh? Seems calm. Then stuck my head out. BLAST! Oh yeah, that enclosure! Now going to windward is if anything too comfortable.

All the sail controls are right there on the L450. It feels super secure up there. We have our jack-lines permanently laid out, and have practiced using them. But we have not felt the need to actually put them to use. I have had too many hours slamming the boat to windward in moderate seas, and she was still very comfortable. Only once was I a bad captain and went 40nm to windward against 4m+ seas, and that was terrible. Turned around and headed back, and it was magically calm and wonderful sailing along with the waves. Perhaps I should have used the jacklines then, but on the L450, going from the cockpit to the flybridge on stbd, there is no way you are going to fall of the boat. Still, we have the jacklines and harnesses ready, in case conditions merit.

-Erik
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