Flybridge in adverse conditions

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by jsib

I came here looking with the same questions but my interest is a different worry. Looking at the Nautitech the twin stations are aft an on the sides, the Lagoon 42 and others have fly bridges. Flybridges raise the boom with makes reefing more difficult, it also adds windage. Yet the twin stations seem to warrant tying yourself in to take the green water over the sides. I am trying to appease the wife and really get into a cat. I see this though as the difference of a open cockpit vs the Amel 54, it has over head cover and a cup holder.

If you're talking about taking green water in the cockpit of a 40'+ catamaran, then you're out in conditions where you'd be wearing a harness on any boat smaller than an oil tanker. And I guarantee that you'll have bigger things on your plate than fretting about wearing a tether. Which you'd need such a lot more on a 50' mono than on a 40' cat.

Also when pondering a flybridge in such conditions, consider what it'll be like climbing up & down to it, as well as the motion that you'll be experiencing when up so high in violent storm conditions.

Which, while handling the boat in heavy weather should certainly be planned for, I'm thinking that few recreational sailors see conditions fierce enough to put green water into the cockpit of the mentioned catamarans. So spending the time, & $ on a good 2nd or 3rd autopilot with remote is well spent, as you then can steer from inside of the bridgedeck cabin.

And if you're going for the belt & suspenders approach, install a steering station inside of the bridgedeck cabin. That way you can drive the boat manually through fierce conditions while staying warm & dry for 90% of your watch, as can the Mrs. Something that'll likely go over better than trying to climb up to the roof of the bridgedeck cabin to reach the flybridge in F8+ conditions.

Pull up some videos of catamarans in rough conditions & it should become apparent that their motion is incredibly tame, & dry as compared to most mono's in the same sea states, & winds. They're twice as wide, & don't have a big lead pendulum hung underneath of them.


Edit: You might look at cats which have twin steering stations at the aft end of both sides of the bridgedeck cabin. They have fairly good weather protection as compared to boats with a wheel at each aft cockpit corner. And you can even build clam shell blisters onto the cabin sides to block most of the spray, & on deck water.

[Bulawayo]

My belief is that fly bridges can work for the majority of the time, especially when the cat is full of guests - ala chartering, especially in benign conditions. The draw backs, on the limited number of flybridge cats that I have been on is the time it can take to get back to the sail lines in an emergency, the restricted access to the boom/foot of sail also in an emergency. I have also found that visability is severely restricted in close up situations especially aft. What scares the pants of me is the windage and raised CoG under extreme conditions. Having had a headboard failure a few years back it really drove home the benefits of access to the boom and sail under not so nice conditions. For the short crew I also feel that the helm is just too remote from the rest of the vessel.
The last raised helm I was on had resolved the rear view aspect by installing a simple camera system which seemed to do the job.
So saying.....if my sailing was restricted to day sails in Caribbean / Med or if I was placing a boat into the charter market then I would be happy with such an arrangment. If if were for my own use as a live aboard blue water boat then I would avoid the flybridge (and stay exactly as I am). Under extreme conditions, I ask myself, would I really wish to be perched up there?

Originally Posted by PHR

Great discussion. I've been looking at the Lagoon 440 for purchase and that flybridge worried me too, but Brent on Impi handles it well, and I figure most of the time with the boat is going to be sitting somewhere, or least gentle sailing, and not sailing in rough seas. Love that enclosure in the earlier post, PaulinOz.

[Blackduck]

Admittedly my opinion is worth scarcely a dot by virtue of my humbling lack of sailing experience... but. I recently had to move my November purchased Lagoon 450 from Split up the Croatian coast to its winter home. At the same time the boat had to be "exported" out of Croatian waters a stipulated 12 nm in the Italian direction. Given a hard deadline, the skipper (Broker) and I motored off into a gentle brewing storm of roiling grey skies and iron black seas. As we breached the island perimeters of the coast we had following winds of 45 knot winds gusting to 50 and waves that my surfers conservative eye counted at ten feet from mid to cap (nothing bad I am sure). For me the most comfortable, steady and quiet place for taking this in - my first experience of "weather" (mild by oceanic standards I understand) - was the flybridge. I loved it up there. Indeed this blowing spray filled ride cemented my resolve that had been mine from a year earlier, that the one characteristic I was unwilling to bend on when purchasing a catamaran was a flybridge. I had found myself sitting up on high (on a Bali 4.3) at a boat show and immediately knew this was where I wanted to be - the flybridge if not the Bali. Perhaps with a few years (and true "weather" and nautical miles and wild waves) under my belt I may have a different opinion but for now I am chafing at the bit to get back to my boat and the lofted airy of my flybridge. But then I love heights, and on the flybridge I love the vantage and the view and the perspective.
I won't naively venture more thoughts on isolation or remoteness or sail control or indeed true oceanic or blue water travails or travels because I lack the experience bank that will give worth to such opinions. For now however, I just can't get enough time up there...on the bridge that I feel is rightly branded "fly". That is how it feels to me: flying.

[boatman61]

I can understand the benefits of the flybridge in Charter/Caribe/Med sailing where somewhere to hide from the sea's and weather is close at hand but.. having taken an L440 across the pond I find them dangerous in weather.. its risky moving from the 'cockpit' to the side deck and then up the steps to the controls.. poorly set up grab stations.. handling the main is a stretch and very difficult and I'm 6'2" also the boom is constantly trying to toss one over the side.. had the 2nd reef fail at the leech in 40kts and bringing it all under control while pitching over 5metre sea's and getting slammed by the boom a few times was no fun..
Keep them where they belong Grockle Cruising and they're fine.. but they are not a fun or safe voyaging boat.

[Emerald Sea]

Originally Posted by Cockeye429

We are looking at a lagoon 450F and I'm wondering how do people deal with not having a hardtop and a enclosure for sail in adverse conditions. Thanks

We are circumnavigating, having completed 20k nm so far, dealt with sustained force 10s and 11s on several occassions, plenty of rain/spray, I can confirm undoubtably that a hardtop is a 'nice to have' and not 'essential' to your safety or sailing pleasure.

Contrary to what some say it is NOT dangerous up there. In fact you are surrounded by your environment with optimal awareness, all the instruments, systems at hand to allow you to control your boat appropriately.

We have the large factory optioned bimini. After 2.5yrs the original frame and sunbrella's are well secure and intact, though we have reinforced sections of sunbrella. We put the helm covers down to offset wind, rain and spray conditions during passaging and its quite comfy up there. If I ever felt it was about to come off we can remove it in minutes. You can replace a lot of covers for the price of a hardtop.

We have taken the optional nav station setup: engine control, joystick and have a remote AP. Though we don't often use these as we tend to enjoy the helm and the overall awareness it offers.

[UNCIVILIZED]

A couple of other thinks on flybridges worth considering:

It’s a part of our DNA that when in situations that provoke a lot of adrenaline, humans are more inclined to remain where they feel safe. Such as in the cockpit when weather blows in, which also may be the case with flybridges. And in stiffer weather it’s all the more important to take regular tours of the deck looking for problems, before they become problems. So if you’re more prone to remaining where it's comfortable, & or, it’s a mental or athletic challenge getting to your elevated bridge, then you may wish to consider this when purchasing a boat. Including that men have stronger upper bodies for doing such things as climbing ladders in a seaway.

These aren't judgements, they just are. However it’s worth thinking on, for both you and your mate. As, how often have you read the (fallacious) statement “all lines led back to the (supposed) safety of the cockpit, so that you don’t have to go forward…”.

The other point is that while I don’t know exactly how heavy the factory hard tops are on some of these boats. My guess is that they’re not designed to fully take advantage of modern light weight materials. And if that’s the case, then you might consider having a custom one built using such. As it would be fairly easy to build such a lid that falls into the weight range of 1-1.5lbs/sqft. Which, while up high, that’s still a lot of weight. But if it saves half or more over the factory version, then you’re removing over 100lbs, 15’ or so above the WL.

Albeit if you’re one to whom the numbers matter, that “mere” 100lbs equates to adding 50lbs+ to your mast. So that a full canvas enclosure, along with a hard top, & it’s supports works out to adding well over 100lbs to your mast. Not accounting for the hit from the mass of the elevated boom & mainsail. And also 2-3 people, nav equipment, winches, etc. Which, to give a bit of a yardstick. Performance guys fight pretty dang hard, & sacrifice a lot in order to shave off just 1kg aloft. Even if only by just stripping the cover off of a halyard.

[category4jay]

Originally Posted by ZULU40

Why not talk with the skipper of Impi, he seems knowledgeable and approachable.

I agree. Contact Capt. Brent on IMPI. I'm sure he's loaded with the experience. He seems to love sailing up on the flybridge in rough water.

[PaulinOz]

This post suggests one would not want to be up so high in a Violent storm.

Quote Post# 31 "Also when pondering a flybridge in such conditions, consider what it'll be like climbing up & down to it, as well as the motion that you'll be experiencing when up so high in violent storm conditions."

Then not 5 posts later it may also be the case that the flybridge makes you feel so safe and comfortable that you will not venture out on deck to do a safety inspection.

Quote # 36 "It’s a part of our DNA that when in situations that provoke a lot of adrenaline, humans are more inclined to remain where they feel safe. Such as in the cockpit when weather blows in, which also may be the case with flybridges."

So which view is your actual take on the fly bridges on cats.
Death traps to be used only for marina living or floating safety capsule from which scared sailors will not venture.

I'm not looking to start anything. Just pointing out some of the obvious discrepancies in the conflicting statements.

[Cockeye429]

Thanks for all the comments yeas and nays. And thank you PaulinOz for the pictures that's exactly what we want.

[smj]

I've experienced the lack of being able to look over the cabin top towards the opposite bow on twin aft helms on both production boats and to some extent our cat. What I've always wondered is do you have good visibility on all points of sail on a fly bridge, or does it lack on some points of sail?


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[StuM]

Originally Posted by smj

I've experienced the lack of being able to look over the cabin top towards the opposite bow on twin aft helms on both production boats and to some extent our cat. What I've always wondered is do you have good visibility on all points of sail on a fly bridge, or does it lack on some points of sail?

You certainly can't see under the headsail if it is out on the same side as the flybridge.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by PaulinOz

This post suggests one would not want to be up so high in a Violent storm.

Quote Post# 31 "Also when pondering a flybridge in such conditions, consider what it'll be like climbing up & down to it, as well as the motion that you'll be experiencing when up so high in violent storm conditions."

Then not 5 posts later it may also be the case that the flybridge makes you feel so safe and comfortable that you will not venture out on deck to do a safety inspection.

Quote # 36 "It’s a part of our DNA that when in situations that provoke a lot of adrenaline, humans are more inclined to remain where they feel safe. Such as in the cockpit when weather blows in, which also may be the case with flybridges."

So which view is your actual take on the fly bridges on cats.
Death traps to be used only for marina living or floating safety capsule from which scared sailors will not venture.

I'm not looking to start anything. Just pointing out some of the obvious discrepancies in the conflicting statements.

I'm simply attempting to point out some facts on the issue at hand, & am far from the only one who sees that there are pro's & con's to flybridges. Personally I'd prefer other options for steering stations.

As to the above quote/quotes. They're insights into human nature, along with a commentary on some realities. And one of these is that people can & do irrationally remain in a location where they feel safe, when in reality said location is far from it. Refusing to move to somewhere that actually is safe even under very real threat of death.

Consider that a guy under fire will hunker down in an 8" deep ditch as he's being bracketed by a mortar, & will vehemently refuse to move to a bunker 10yds away which has significant overhead cover. This when there's obviously a time lapse between incoming rounds. Enough so that he has more than enough time to safely switch locations.

Which, the ditch offers little enough protection against mortars, since they come at you from above. So remaining in it's not rational behavior in such a situation, but because he feels safe in the ditch, he won't move to a genuinely safe location unless someone physically drags him. Even though there's time to do so with zero risk.

Various locations on a sailboat can have the exact same effect on people when conditions are rough. Or even when a boat is on fire or sinking. That's part of what's being stated. Along with the genuine physical realities about flybridges. And as I said, I'd prefer different options in terms of where the helm is located.


EDIT: Being "bracketed" means that the bad guys have a rough fix on your position, & assume that you're staying there while getting as low as you can. So then they put rounds on either side of you, walking them ever closer to where they think you are with each round. So that unless you move, given time, you'll get pounded into pate'. And odds are you know this as well, but quite a large percentage of folks still can't/won't move in such circumstances.


Consider the folks on the Titanic, who even when it was obvious to everyone that the ship was sinking, & there weren't enough lifeboats, did nothing. Yet there were more than enough materials on hand to at least try & build rafts in efforts to save themselves. But such actions sure aren't mentioned in any accounts of said disaster that I've seen. People freeze, it's a commonly known biological fact: Fight, Flight, or Freeze.

[smj]

Originally Posted by StuM

You certainly can't see under the headsail if it is out on the same side as the flybridge.

Those were my thoughts.

[tuskie]

Definitely don't wish to be in a flybridge under mortar attack.

Fly bridges on sailing cats are no different to power boats; a great helm position if, and only if, the vessel is stable enough. On a big, heavy, stable sailing cat such as a L440 or 450, they are no impediment and a good option if it suits your "cruising style". Not such a good idea on smaller, lighter and less stable boats.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by tuskie

Fly bridges on sailing cats are no different to power boats; a great helm position if, and only if, the vessel is stable enough.

They are very different!

Power boats don't have big headsails that block visibilty from the flybridge!