Fly bridge or not

[Bean Counter]

It would be interesting to see how many full time cruisers who have had a fly-bridge over a couple of years, ever went back to a non fly helm other than for a performance quest. So who has owned a Lagoon 440 or 500 etc and then gone back to a Lagoon 450S or Helia 44 or Leopard 44/ 48? I would suggest that the reverse statistic would also be interesting.

From our own experience we had a single seat helm in a performance dagger board cruiser for 15 years, we also chartered several Lagoon 380,s Leopard 39, FP Lipari, over that time in different locations. In year 2013 we chartered a Lagoon 440 in the BVI and thought the fly bridge opened a whole new world to cruising especially in Caribbean. We sold the cramped lightweight performance boat and bought a Lagoon 450F for serious full time live aboard cruising - it has been a really good decision. We have spent 95% of our time cruising between island in the Caribbean, Bahamas, East coast USA and the other 5% doing the crossings eg USA to BVI (1,000 nm).
Steering from the fly bridge in big seas is no big deal, you are only a couple of feet higher than a semi- fly, but the vision is so much better for shallow waters in the day and your viewing range at night is also much improved. Sure in wild weather the helm could be exposed but we have all-round clears and a bimini and that is fine. Most times all the crew/guests want to sit on the fly bridge, not down in the cockpit where there is little breeze, and certainly hardly anyone wants to sit in the salon.

When sailing two up at night, it is true there is no direct line of sight to the cockpit or into the Salon when one of us needs to sleep. If there is an dire need for the crew to be woken or called up, we bip the fog horn.

Much is often made of the higher rig, I doubt a 6ft higher mast makes much difference to a volume factory built cat, in fact the top of the mainsail will be higher and possibly have more aerodynamic benefits.

Until you work out the routine, accessing the boom when packing the main away is the only real hassle, until you get proficient with a long boat hook. If you feel the need to visit the boom on a regular basis, get a hard top bimini.

Having owned both styles I list the main advantages/disadvantages of the fly-bridge


Advantages:
1. Best vision. 360 degree vision from the helm, also good for night vision
2 Eyeball navigation much improved in shallow water, reefs, sandbars.
3 When under way it becomes the social center seating 6 + people
4 Heaps of room for "stuff" binoculars, ipad, gloves, knives, torches, jackets, hats, etc etc.
5. Short uninterrupted walk from starboard to port side,
6 Lines, halyards and winches are split port and starboard so not all piling into the same location, but still easily accessible.
7 Frees up more space in cockpit
8 Anchoring - can see the chain angle from the helm, no need to yell back and forwards to crew. Can see exactly what crew is doing.
9 Nice breeze on the fly bridge on hot tropic days underway and at anchor - good place for cocktails, viewing sunsets etc.
10 Spray from bows whilst underway rarely makes it to the fly bridge, even so a roll down windscreen is available.
11 Crew can stretch out and nap next to helmsman
12 When at sea can see what is going on when crew is working on the forward deck/tramp, launching spinnaker, anchor work, etc.

Disadvantages:
1 Lengthier process to pack mainsail
2 No direct line of sight from helm to cockpit/Salon
3 More cleaning required for Fly bridge area
4 Bimini more costly
5 Bit more windage
6 More elevated position in big seas may feel uncomfortable for some

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Bean Counter

Advantages:
1. Best vision. 360 degree vision from the helm, also good for night vision

You never fly any sort of headsail?

[Bean Counter]

Originally Posted by StuM

You never fly any sort of headsail?

Ok, got me, 270 degrees of great vision, when sailing with Genoa. (The spi flies high enough to see under it) Can see around and under the jib from the helm on port, 3 steps to take a quick look around the sail on starboard. In crowded waters or lots of crab pots (which are also easier to spot from high helm) crew often sits on port side of fly bench. Yes a better window in the genoa would be good too. The only sail that causes vision difficulties in that quadrant is the gennaker because its foot is cut so low. So good point!

[Clubfooted Jib]

Everyone wanting to be on the bridge is one reason to have the open bridge deck. Most or all crew can be there where the action is. I suppose keeping the helmsman isolated might be good if there is an issue of distraction from the crew but it is hard for me to see that as a big problem. Thanks though for you consideration of these things. It helps us all.
Clubfooted Jib

[thinwater]

My feeling is definitely know, not if you really like sailing. All of the reasons have to do with fast sailing in a breeze.

• The pitching is worse the higher you go.
• You are issolated from the deck, should you need to get somewherer.
• You can't have two helm stations AND have full access to all of the winches.

I also see inside helm stations, and IMHO, they have also been implicated in several capsizes. Inside you are too isolated from the wind and too far from the controls. The alternative is you have to throttle way back, until you are not really sailing, at least not sailing hard.


I would also be embarrassed to have the boom two stories off the water. They are simply aren't sailing machines and I have identified myself as a wealthy non-sailor. I never cared about looking wealthy. In fact, I'm often embarrassed that my boat might com across as showing off. I don't mean it to. It is just a tool for going places.



But that is just one point of view.

[Clubfooted Jib]

Re points made by clear water:

In open bridge deck designed there is no Main Salon. It is open with the helm somewhat aft of amidships and all lines and controls leading to the open bridge deck. Stratoglass usually zips around the bridge deck if weather is rough but the helm still has full control and 360 visibility. I'll try to find a photo.
Clubfooted Jib

[Clubfooted Jib]

Hope pictures of open bridge deck are attached.
Clubfooted Jib

[Clubfooted Jib]

And one more

[smj]

Original Seawind 1000 canvas top open bridgedeck.

[sailingharry]

That's a Maine Cat. An awesome boat, and an awesome steering concept.

But I have some concerns with it.
* It's not well suited for colder sailing. Like, say, Maine, ironically!
* It's not well suited for nasty offshore stuff. I'm not sure how well the strataglass handles large and repeated hits of spray in a gale. I know the Catana 43 I did a delivery on took occasional hits in the 50 kt/15 foot sea weather we were in.
* It's not conducive to easily locking up when you go ashore. You can't leave your laptop on the saloon table when you go get groceries!

But, seriously, an awesome boat and concept!

A close compromise is the Seawind. Very open, but still somewhat enclosed. Only problem is that the US market is currently limited to the 35 foot model.

Not a choice I have to make. Both of them are WAAAAY outside my budget. So I just have to drool!

[Clubfooted Jib]

Thanks sailingharry, we are lucky to have 'em. We were on the delivery from Maine in April and another in October, and with the stratoglass down were quite warm. I've had 70 kt. gusts dead on the strern glass and it just gave in a little. Plenty bow spray offshore too. But your points are well taken and they do have an option for fixed glass. The new MC 38 has fixed glass but we are partial to the option of complete openness.
Clubfooted Jib

[sebastiankummer]

Originally Posted by Bean Counter

Ok, got me, 270 degrees of great vision, when sailing with Genoa. (The spi flies high enough to see under it) Can see around and under the jib from the helm on port, 3 steps to take a quick look around the sail on starboard. In crowded waters or lots of crab pots (which are also easier to spot from high helm) crew often sits on port side of fly bench. Yes a better window in the genoa would be good too. The only sail that causes vision difficulties in that quadrant is the gennaker because its foot is cut so low. So good point!

I love our Lagoon 450 fly bridge and I found the only disadvantage is the visibility from 270-0 degree with the genua and the big spi (190 m2). I do the same as mentioned step to the front on starboard or ask crew on port or go myself to port. We use now much more the smaller one (160 m2) because it's easier to handle and has much better visibility to the front. So discuss with the sailmaker when buying a gennaker and if you have doubts go for a smaller spi.
Regarding the reverse statistics: my wife will never allow me to buy a boat without a comfortable sun bathing area on the fly bridge. She even does not like the Lagoon 52 and the 560 which have fly bridges but not place in front of the helm.
Regarding communication on the Lagoon 450 F you can perfectly communicate with crew sitting near to the helm and also everybody that is lying on the two beds in front of the helm.

[Freshly Hooked]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

I do not like ether the setup of two wheels at the deck like outremar or nautitech, you are totally exposed to the elements and have almost no visibility up front. This is even worse than a flybridge in my opinion, performance wise it is a setup for higher speed, because of a lower profile of the deck with less air resistance.

I have duel helms on my Outremer and have no complaints of the vis up front but I have a 2000 Gerard Danson not a new one so I can't speak to them. I will say that my throttle controllers are on port and wish I had more vis when docking on starboard. Also zero experience on a fly bridge.

[fxykty]

Everyone loves their boats and picked them for one or more primary positive attributes. In the same manner I expect everyone did not pick other potential boats for one or more primary reasons. I'm not sure if a flybridge is one of those primary attributes, but for my partner and I the aesthetically the high boom and separation from the cabin and cockpit is a negative attribute. Though the sun lounging up top sounds pretty good, and less spray under way than lounging on the tramps.

Our cat has poor visibility around the jib and the code zero without going to the low side. But full visibility in all other directions from the helm. A common issue for pretty much every sailing boat with headsails I expect.

[Jim Cate]

Our cat has poor visibility around the jib and the code zero without going to the low side.

Low side? Low side? I thought that cats didn't have no steenkin' low side! Only low side I know of on cats is the bank balance...

(Joking, guys, don't get upset!)

Jim

Jim