Fiberglassing over escape hatch openings, is this legal in the USA?

[chrisr]

as a cat owner, i was kinda interested in this thread and so actually read all the way through. my thoughts ;

- comments by mono owners about cat specific issues are usually ill-informed and not helpful

- only some cats have escape hatches - mainly the french boats built under a stupid eu rule. just as many cats don't have one and very rare to find such fitted by choice

- escape hatches create far more trouble than they are worth

- the cost to properly replace the hatch is going to be significant. some folk might feel it justified, but you are likely to get just as good a fix with half a dozen tubes of sika

- getting rid of the escape hatches will probably increase the boats re-sale value

cheers,

[dfelsent]

Back in the day I helped build a trimaran for the 1980 OSTAR Race. It was wood/epoxy. One of these:

Held onto the bottom of an ama with wing nuts was the story.
Not about escape. But about living on a turtled tri and not having to swim for your dinner. Cutting your way back in.
BTW that boat hit a sleeping whale, snapped the daggerboard 900 miles offshore, and still came in first in class.
I’m a mono owner but I do get the hatch bit. Sucks that they often leak though. If I had a multi I’d spend time dealing with the leaks, curse them, and think of alternatives if possible.

[GRIT]

I meant to mention; when in the Bahamas I did a test on one hatch, to stop the leaking. I put Butyl tape on the rubber, then closed the hatch. It worked great, and didn't leak a drop. Though the window would not open, it did stop the water. I did another test of adding some draft stop, rubber gasket thinghy you find in the marine store. It has a sticky on one side, and I stuck it to the aluminum frame of the hatch, then closed the hatch over it. It fills the gap between the rubber and the frame lip. That works too, and I'm able to open the hatch for air, on occasion. The "gasket" doesn't like to stay on if the hatch is open, so it's a half arsed "repair", but at least the bilge pump doesn't come on every time we go sailing.

I should also mention, our hatches are 30cm from the water, so they're not very low, and even so, they leak with every wave.

Our hatches are Vetus hatches, and they had the genius idea to make an aluminum hatch, and put a very hard rubber, with a moulded groove to accept the frame lip. This is about as effective as putting a moulded piece of aluminum to meet the frame lip; it's total crap.

I can't fathom why they'd do that. But I'm looking for a proper "rubber" seal that's more flexible (as normal ones are), that will glue into the hatch, so it'll make a proper seal against the frame.

As it is, water gushes into the boat, between the hard rubber seal, and the frame lip.

Anyway, if you're wanting to permanently seal the hatch, try the butyl tape.

Cheers.
Paul

[44'cruisingcat]

Most production cats have escape hatches because most are built to suit EU certification. Many of the EU rules appear to have been written by monohull sailors with no multihull experience.

They also require toerails forward of the mast. On a cat? Why not aft of the mast? Because that's where the "rail meat" sits! On a cat?

Outside the EU you don't have to have escape hatches (or toerails). However some racing organisations do require them.

[dfelsent]

Toe rails. Ugh. I was skippering a borrowed j-105 in the Chesapeake in breeze. I found my leg overboard because there was NO FREAKING TOE RAIL and I expected one.
Comfort and IRC racing rules be damned, on a monohull full length toerails are basic safety equipment.
On an offshore multi I would like one not for heeling. But for sloppy slippery seas and decks.

[CF32907]

CaptVR here folks
I can say, that the USCG does not certify a boat, nor does ABYC. The USCG has certain guides that are required, ABYC has guides you should adhere to. If a marine surveyor surveys for insurance and financing all have to be met or your insurance company will probably deny covering your boat. If you glass over these escape hatches, you have to tell it to anyone staying on the boat or buying the boat, if you do not and have a fire or sinking and someone dies, you will be tried for manslaughter.
I had a friend on a Hat 57 MY that had a fire at night, he was in the aft cabin with no way to get out but the escape hatch, carpet and furniture was on top of the hatch. He had first and second degree burns before he got the hatch open.
I can only say this is a no brainer, properly fix the hatch seals. I can say with all candor that only an idiot would permanently seal off an escape hatch.
Happy boating all. Capt. Vince Rakstis, Ret.MS St.Petersburg, Fl.

[GRIT]

CF32907: Are you assuming that the escape hatch is the only way out, other than the companionway?

Standards for Cats are not universal, just as standards for Cars aren't universal. It would seem that some jurisdictions require "safety" items that other jurisdictions don't. Yet most all jurisdictions think their requirements are proper.

I guess I'm saying that your assumption that an "escape" hatch is the only method of egress, in case of emergency, might be flawed. Some hatches, even though not labeled as emergency escape hatch, might serve for just such a purpose. Monohulls, after all, don't have escape hatches.

If, however, an escape hatch is strictly to be used for Multihull inversions, then one should probably analyze the number of multihull inversions that have occurred, before making them a requirement. I'd venture to guess the number of Lagoon, Fontaine Pajot, Privelege or other of this type, inversions would be exceedingly small; small enough in fact that they'd be dwarfed by the number of cats sunk, or nearly so, by a failed escape hatch. I'd argue the number of lives put in jeopardy by failed escape hatches outnumber those saved by them.

I think there's an argument to be made for the inclusion of these devices, but I think there's just as much merit in not having them installed.

I have never read of anyone being saved by these hatches. I'd be interested to hear such stories. I seem to remember "Anna" flipping, and did not have the benefit of a useable escape hatch. I think that episode would have been less stressful if they'd have had working hatches; but it's the only story I can remember of this being so.

Something to think about.

Cheers.
Paul.

PS, the Butyl taped hatch is able to be opened, with effort, for repair or whatnot. We opened ours and cleaned off the Butyl to try the rubber seal stuff. It's not permanent, unless you want it to be so.

[PatB]

Why is it considered more likely, by some posters, that the occupants of a catamaran, with escape hatches, will need to use said hatches to escape an on board fire, than the occupants of a monohull, who will generally only have the usual companion way and forehatch as means of egress?

If it's because cat designers assume that the presence of escape hatches for use in an inversion means that they can reduce other, more generally useful, means of egress, maybe such a design philosophy needs looking at.

[44'cruisingcat]

Every berth on our boat has two ways out. The normal entry and a 500mm hatch.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by chrisr

as a cat owner, i was kinda interested in this thread and so actually read all the way through. my thoughts ;



- comments by mono owners about cat specific issues are usually ill-informed and not helpful



- only some cats have escape hatches - mainly the french boats built under a stupid eu rule. just as many cats don't have one and very rare to find such fitted by choice



- escape hatches create far more trouble than they are worth



- the cost to properly replace the hatch is going to be significant. some folk might feel it justified, but you are likely to get just as good a fix with half a dozen tubes of sika



- getting rid of the escape hatches will probably increase the boats re-sale value



cheers,

Ive got a South African built boat which thankfully does not have those foolish and dangerous "escape" hatches.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Every berth on our boat has two ways out. The normal entry and a 500mm hatch.

As do many cats, which makes those escape hatches redundant. Certainly so in the case of a fire and practically so in the unlikely case of capsize...why would I make my way to an "escape" hatch when Ive got one right there in my cabin? Yes, it will be underwater when inverted, but so what, only a few feet at most (and on most overloaded cruising boats I suspect the escape hatches will be at least partially submerged too).

[RickG]

Nahbrown, what brand cat? Some Fontaine Pajots have recalls on hatches.

Cheers, RickG

[capn_billl]

Originally Posted by rmlarson1098

Ah, but it's not just leaks, is it? It's strongly suspected - and I believe conformed in some 'non-fatal' cases - that failed escape hatches in well-known EU made catamarans have resulted in the loss of the boat.
Should I ever be fortunate enough to own a bluewater cat, it would not have an escape hatch. Period.

My escape hatches are well above the waterline.

[Paul Howard]

In ordinary sailing the escape hatch in the tunnel facing inboard under the bridge deck of our catamaran did not leak.
But in gales and big seas, when the tunnel would be pounding and full and pressurized in big breaking seas, there was leakage. I kept the seals greased with silicone grease to help seal, but the pressure is huge on the curved undersurface of our 1992 Manta catamaran.
We had met a U.S. couple with an older Privilege cat that have very low clearance and an escape hatch that faced down, just inside the companionway on the bridge deck. During a December gale north of the Canary Islands, the waves pounded so hard on that escape hatch that it broke and they were patching with plywood and towels. Coincidently, we compared locations after meeting them and we were hove to in the same gale at the same date, about 100nm from them.

[TabbyCat]

Originally Posted by Nahbrown

Thoughts or references?

First of all, "Escape Hatch" is probably a misnomer. They are actually "re-entry" hatches. If the boat flips over, they allow you to can gain access to shelter food & safety equipment inside without going for a swim. If your cat is anything like mine, you have a few other hatches on the boat that are plenty large enough to get out of if the boat were to turn turtle, it just requires a swim. By the time we got to NZ, ours were leaking badly and the rivets that hold the locking handles were corroded. So we blocked them in with very thick plexiglass. No more leaks, much safer, and they still let in light. Less waterflow resistance while underway too, as we had them faired in to the hull. FWIW, our boat was not designed with them anyway, we had them added as an "option". To be Cat 1 certified in NZ or Australia, they are required, but since we are a USA boat, the NZ Cat 1 cert did not apply to us.

A few years back I also had a client with a claim due to the "escape" hatches- it was a charter boat, the hatches were above sea level, so one of the charter guests opened the hatch for ventilation. They didn't account for the the fact that when they went on the other tack and the seas got a little choppier that the hatch would then be at sea level. The boat took on a bunch of water, ruining the batteries, which were in the bilge, and many electronics and required a salvage operation.

If you're really worried about the inspection guys, just keep a pick hammer by the plexiglass hatch, and tell them that's how you open it in an emergency. (of course, that won't actually work, it will just bounce right off, but they will believe you).