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Old 14-11-2022, 07:36   #406
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Re: Fast Cruising Catamarans - How Fast ?

This video illustrating some of the benefits and drawbacks of sailing fast on a performance catamaran is worth watching:
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Old 14-11-2022, 07:48   #407
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Re: Fast Cruising Catamarans - How Fast ?

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Originally Posted by GRIT View Post
Aqfishing:

I think posting about an upturned cat, is appropriate, in a thread about sailing cats fast, and am not sensitive to it at all. It's not old news, and I saw no malice in the post (he sails a cat too); it just happened recently, and they were racing after all. It's not like it's a mom and pop out for a Sunday sail; and if it were, I'd still want to know why and how they flipped. I prefer to garner my knowledge from other's mistakes, rather than my own.

11 knots, close hauled, in those seas is fast, and a handful to helm. It wouldn't take much of a mistake to end up in trouble, when pushing the limits.

It can happen, and for owners of performance cats, it's something we can learn from; if we can get the details.

I don't see any reason to be sensitive about posting upturned cats; sticks and stones, and all that. For a performance cat, it's a possibility; for a performance cat being pushed to it's limits, the chances go up dramatically.

Nobody blinked an eye when Fujin turned over. He was pushing the limits.

Racing is racing, and anything is possible.

I appreciate seeing what can happen, it helps me keep my foot "off the gas". Thanks Catlove, for posting.

Cheers.
Paul.
I want to know too!
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Old 14-11-2022, 07:49   #408
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pirate Re: Fast Cruising Catamarans - How Fast ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
This video illustrating some of the benefits and drawbacks of sailing fast on a performance catamaran is worth watching:
Bumma they don't come with suspension..
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Old 14-11-2022, 08:03   #409
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Re: Fast Cruising Catamarans - How Fast ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GRIT View Post
Aqfishing:

I think posting about an upturned cat, is appropriate, in a thread about sailing cats fast, and am not sensitive to it at all. It's not old news, and I saw no malice in the post (he sails a cat too); it just happened recently, and they were racing after all. It's not like it's a mom and pop out for a Sunday sail; and if it were, I'd still want to know why and how they flipped. I prefer to garner my knowledge from other's mistakes, rather than my own.

11 knots, close hauled, in those seas is fast, and a handful to helm. It wouldn't take much of a mistake to end up in trouble, when pushing the limits.

It can happen, and for owners of performance cats, it's something we can learn from; if we can get the details.

I don't see any reason to be sensitive about posting upturned cats; sticks and stones, and all that. For a performance cat, it's a possibility; for a performance cat being pushed to it's limits, the chances go up dramatically.

Nobody blinked an eye when Fujin turned over. He was pushing the limits.

Racing is racing, and anything is possible.

I appreciate seeing what can happen, it helps me keep my foot "off the gas". Thanks Catlove, for posting.

Cheers.
Paul.
At no point did I say it was inappropriate.

I posted a video of a cat going fast, the topic of the thread? he sarcastically(“ Speaking of nice n dry”) posted a story about a cat capsized. I could have responded with a story of a mono in same situation, but said that it would be pointless. It would also be off topic/hijacking the thread, there are enough cat vs mono threads out there for that!

Knowing the limits of your boat is excellent, but not sure how one would find the limit without going over it!

More on topic, have had our 40 up to 13 kts on a surf, with regular charter genoa and main. Around 90 deg AWA around 20 kt TWS, hardly high performance!

Great day to all!
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Old 14-11-2022, 08:07   #410
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Re: Fast Cruising Catamarans - How Fast ?

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Bumma they don't come with suspension..
Nice video, kinda brings it home! Slow n comfy for me! I must be getting old
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Old 14-11-2022, 08:24   #411
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Re: Fast Cruising Catamarans - How Fast ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_S View Post
Middle height, on the RHS of your screen shot. I can't imagine how uncomfortable the equipment is to measure this, is this just a personal record or is it for the whole crew.



I even tried looking it up, what is it ?



I'm looking forward to the adds I get now because I looked it up [emoji846]


For all those who didn’t lol- here’s a closeup. I also want to know the language and true meaning 🤣

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Old 14-11-2022, 12:18   #412
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Re: Fast Cruising Catamarans - How Fast ?

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For all those who didn’t lol- here’s a closeup. I also want to know the language and true meaning ��

Attachment 267415
I could be a smart arse and say that FART obviously means WIND!

But I'm pretty sure it must show the top speed of the boat.

Cheers.
Paul.

PS:
It's Norweigan for Speed. Judging from the B&G ad I saw, it's boatspeed through the water.
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Old 14-11-2022, 14:11   #413
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Re: Fast Cruising Catamarans - How Fast ?

19.9 kts on a Balance 482 this morning off Frying Pan Shoals.
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Old 14-11-2022, 16:56   #414
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Re: Fast Cruising Catamarans - How Fast ?

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Originally Posted by aqfishing View Post
At no point did I say it was inappropriate.

I posted a video of a cat going fast, the topic of the thread? he sarcastically(“ Speaking of nice n dry”) posted a story about a cat capsized. I could have responded with a story of a mono in same situation, but said that it would be pointless. It would also be off topic/hijacking the thread, there are enough cat vs mono threads out there for that!

Knowing the limits of your boat is excellent, but not sure how one would find the limit without going over it!

Great day to all!

Fishy, please respond with any story you feel appropriate but I never posted anything about monohulls so most likely you misunderstood my post.

I may have been sarcastic but it was not directed at cat vs mono debates (I'm in the multihull camp since forever) , it was intended for people who hallucinate of 30kts+ cruises (hallucinations/dreams/hopes induced by shameless advertising and owners bragging about that once in a lifetime instance).

My intention was to show that :


1 - the recent design performance cats don't go as fast as people think .

Again, look at RdR tracker and check their averages over 4h, 24h and then tell me how impressed you are. Impressed enough to still want to sacrifice all comfort for the extra 1-2kts ?


2 - trying to maintain high averages is risky and unless you have the latest and greatest autopilot and gear, you have to be on deck hand steering and react fast to stuff, ready to dump sheets or else... And all that risk to average 9-10kts or less while racing ? Not that much gain vs a more comfy slightly slower cat.





The older ones like first gen (Danson) Outremers a different story.



As far as how can you find the limits of your boat without going over, that is easy. When the boat starts flying a hull that's the absolute limit at least for me.

One should be able to experiment under steady conditions and not heavy seas to determine the limits of safe sail area vs wind speed. A largish cat takes a long time to go over , it is very gradual if you're trying to do it intentionally under a steady wind. I can lift a hull until it barely skims the water and the process looks like slow motion.

After that, never exceed the correct sail area for the conditions , always be below by a safety margin. Reef early especially based on forecast. I have had spreadsheets for each of my past boats that included wind speed, direction, sea state, sail area and trim, boat speed . It's not hard to log and keep track and it only improves over time.
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Old 15-11-2022, 01:11   #415
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Re: Fast Cruising Catamarans - How Fast ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatLove View Post
Fishy, please respond with any story you feel appropriate but I never posted anything about monohulls so most likely you misunderstood my post.

I may have been sarcastic but it was not directed at cat vs mono debates (I'm in the multihull camp since forever) , it was intended for people who hallucinate of 30kts+ cruises (hallucinations/dreams/hopes induced by shameless advertising and owners bragging about that once in a lifetime instance).

My intention was to show that :


1 - the recent design performance cats don't go as fast as people think .

Again, look at RdR tracker and check their averages over 4h, 24h and then tell me how impressed you are. Impressed enough to still want to sacrifice all comfort for the extra 1-2kts ?


2 - trying to maintain high averages is risky and unless you have the latest and greatest autopilot and gear, you have to be on deck hand steering and react fast to stuff, ready to dump sheets or else... And all that risk to average 9-10kts or less while racing ? Not that much gain vs a more comfy slightly slower cat.





The older ones like first gen (Danson) Outremers a different story.



As far as how can you find the limits of your boat without going over, that is easy. When the boat starts flying a hull that's the absolute limit at least for me.

One should be able to experiment under steady conditions and not heavy seas to determine the limits of safe sail area vs wind speed. A largish cat takes a long time to go over , it is very gradual if you're trying to do it intentionally under a steady wind. I can lift a hull until it barely skims the water and the process looks like slow motion.

After that, never exceed the correct sail area for the conditions , always be below by a safety margin. Reef early especially based on forecast. I have had spreadsheets for each of my past boats that included wind speed, direction, sea state, sail area and trim, boat speed . It's not hard to log and keep track and it only improves over time.
Fishy??? I like that. Lol.

Your camp is noted! Will keep that in mind in order to avoid any confusion in the future!

Totally agree regarding the 30 knot cruising hallucinations!

Having said that, there is probably a place for fast cruising cats. I use fast not in the sense of 30kts+, but more in sense of doing 10 kts in 10 kts of wind kind of thing, i.e. great boat speed in light winds. Must be very handy to be able to do that.

I just stick to the manufacturer's guide lines in terms of reefing. Not experienced enough sailor to push and explore the limits. Besides, my lures don’t work over 8 knots!

Cheers,
Fishy.
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Old 16-11-2022, 23:29   #416
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Re: Fast Cruising Catamarans - How Fast ?

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
This video illustrating some of the benefits and drawbacks of sailing fast on a performance catamaran is worth watching:
A lovely Australian Design. Technology from 30 years ago but still holding its own against some more modern boats. Also please note it is 12.7 metres, pretty short in this era, which will have some comfort implications. But I would own a Crowther Catana in a heart beat, the later Catanas not so much. Hell the 42 Cantina of a few years ago was a tonne heavier than the FP Lipari for example.

It aint rocket science, longer lighter and skinnier is always better.
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Old 17-11-2022, 06:08   #417
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Re: Fast Cruising Catamarans - How Fast ?

From an earlier tread:
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Old 17-11-2022, 07:48   #418
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Re: Fast Cruising Catamarans - How Fast ?

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Originally Posted by Factor View Post

It aint rocket science, longer lighter and skinnier is always better.

In a cruising Cat? Maybe if you are cruising from Marina to Marina and eating at restaurants every night, but if you are cruising to out of the way places and need to carry provisions and spares you are no longer going to have a performance cat.
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Old 17-11-2022, 08:04   #419
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Re: Fast Cruising Catamarans - How Fast ?

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In a cruising Cat? Maybe if you are cruising from Marina to Marina and eating at restaurants every night, but if you are cruising to out of the way places and need to carry provisions and spares you are no longer going to have a performance cat.


From my experience not true. Your performance will suffer but will still be better than the fat hulled sisters. Also depends on how much you “have to” carry?
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Old 17-11-2022, 08:18   #420
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Re: Fast Cruising Catamarans - How Fast ?

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In a cruising Cat? Maybe if you are cruising from Marina to Marina and eating at restaurants every night, but if you are cruising to out of the way places and need to carry provisions and spares you are no longer going to have a performance cat.

This is all down to materials tech and engineering design. The lighter the boat to begin with the more payload is possible to keep within the design displacement. My own cat fully loaded for remote area cruising is still less than half the weight of a production condomaran of a similar size. SMJ's TRT1200 is similarly about half the weight of a comparable size condomaran. Obviously as the cat gets smaller even if the ratio of payload and displacement stays the same the actual payload will be restricted.
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