Fast Cruising Catamarans - How Fast ?

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by imagine2frolic

That was the question. Plain, and simple, and that's how I answered it. Freetime only asked for top speed, and model.

But what would the point of such knowledge be, if it wasn't enriched by knowledge of the circumstances, and as many details as possible of the boats that attained these speeds? Knowing, for example, that an Ericson 35 attained 13.75 knots, without knowing more about the circumstances is, at best, wildly misleading.

[Adaero]

Originally Posted by freetime

The nr.1 catamaran for me is a outremer 42 or 45 right now. But i don´t know if i like her in reality...have only seen her on pics. I don´t know if the interior is TO small for me.

I had to cross the Outremer off my list not because of interior accomodation but because the Admiral insisted on too many toys. The Outremer performs well due to slim narrow hulls but this makes it extremely sensitive to weight. Try and ask Outremer to quote for a boat with generator, aircon, washer/dryer etc and they will decline to quote. You have to appreciate their honesty and sticking to their guns on the market sector they want to operate in.
If you like the Outremer have you had a look at the Freydis 46 or 49?

It would probably pay you to spend a few days at the Grand Pavois in La Rochelle next month as you will find one of the best selection of multi-hulls in Europe.

[imagine2frolic]

Big Cat

I am responding to those that are complaining about the question. Everyone has the right to ask questions, and have their curiosity fulfilled. Threads drift a bit off course all the time, and I find mostly other knowledge comes along with the drift.

When you guys start getting technical. A lot of it goes over my head. That don't stop me from reading it though, but sometimes the bickering does get old.

[BigCat]

I am responding to those that are complaining about the question. Everyone has the right to ask questions, and have their curiosity fulfilled. Threads drift a bit off course all the time, and I find mostly other knowledge comes along with the drift.

When you guys start getting technical. A lot of it goes over my head. That don't stop me from reading it though, but sometimes the bickering does get old.

I don't object to the question, I just want to make it possible to generalize the knowledge that is provided. If we know that a certain cat does 9 knots on a beam reach at 12 knots, it is very enriching to know as many details as possible about sail area, amount of stuff on board, how wide the hulls are, how heavy the cat is, etc.

The underlying ideas aren't very complicated - how heavy a boat is for its size is the D/L ratio. Just knowing the weight doesn't tell you much otherwise. How big the sail area is compared to the weight is the SA/D ratio, how narrow the hulls are is the L/B, how tapered the ends are under water is the prismatic coefficient (pc) etc.

For yacht design 101, I recommend Ted Brewer's article - online at:
Ted Brewer Yacht Design

For catamaran design 101, I recommend Kanter's articles online at:
The Elusive Cruising Catamaran Performance
Southwinds - January 1999

These 3 simple, easily read articles will make 95% of the design tech talk perfectly understandable with no PHd required.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Adaero

I had to cross the Outremer off my list not because of interior accomodation but because the Admiral insisted on too many toys. The Outremer performs well due to slim narrow hulls but this makes it extremely sensitive to weight. Try and ask Outremer to quote for a boat with generator, aircon, washer/dryer etc and they will decline to quote. You have to appreciate their honesty and sticking to their guns on the market sector they want to operate in.
If you like the Outremer have you had a look at the Freydis 46 or 49?

It would probably pay you to spend a few days at the Grand Pavois in La Rochelle next month as you will find one of the best selection of multi-hulls in Europe.

The advantage of the 'little big boat' is that a washer / drier, for example, is a heavy weight compared to a small boat and a light weight compared to a big one. This only works well, however, if you don't increase the accommodations as you stretch the boat. Most 44' catamarans have enough interior for the average yachtsman's use, so the more you stretch the boat, if you keep that interior, the faster and faster boat gets. If we rank building materials from A to D, with A the most expensive, A is epoxy/carbon/kevlar/Corecell (very, very expensive,) B being Vinylester / balsa/ unidirectional glass, C being polyester / balsa, and D being polyester and glass matt and woven roving, I think you get the best bang for the buck with 'B.' If you use 'B', you can build a 'little big boat,' and dollar for dollar, end up with the fastest boat even if you insist on generators, washer driers, etc. The only downside is that there are no stock boats like this, and it costs a lot to keep on a floating dock. If your plans don't include much time on floating docks, you get the maximum speed (read fun!) with the 'little big boat' approach.

I fell in love with speed on a big monohull in San Francisco Bay one afternoon. This boat takes people on day sails, and I was a day passenger, but they let me steer. It is always windy in the afternoon in San Francisco. Serious fun!

[mikereed100]

Another excellent primer on catamaran hulls can be found here under "articles" and "hull shapes".
Woods Designs Sailing Catamarans

Mike (with thanks to Richard Woods)

[Karletto]

our family catamaran was a HIRONDELL 23 but today is an old timer; speed was max 10kns with sails only; first owner sailed from England to Adriatic sea with it

[freetime]

Originally Posted by Adaero

I had to cross the Outremer off my list not because of interior accomodation but because the Admiral insisted on too many toys. The Outremer performs well due to slim narrow hulls but this makes it extremely sensitive to weight. Try and ask Outremer to quote for a boat with generator, aircon, washer/dryer etc and they will decline to quote. You have to appreciate their honesty and sticking to their guns on the market sector they want to operate in.
If you like the Outremer have you had a look at the Freydis 46 or 49?

It would probably pay you to spend a few days at the Grand Pavois in La Rochelle next month as you will find one of the best selection of multi-hulls in Europe.

How much weight do you think i can add in a outremer 42 or 45? for a longer cruise...?
Freydis 49 with twin steeringwheel is on my list, but it´s expensive...

I don´t know right now if i can go to the boatshow....

[ldrhawke]

Originally Posted by Adaero

I had to cross the Outremer off my list not because of interior accomodation but because the Admiral insisted on too many toys. The Outremer performs well due to slim narrow hulls but this makes it extremely sensitive to weight. Try and ask Outremer to quote for a boat with generator, aircon, washer/dryer etc and they will decline to quote. You have to appreciate their honesty and sticking to their guns on the market sector they want to operate in.
If you like the Outremer have you had a look at the Freydis 46 or 49?

It would probably pay you to spend a few days at the Grand Pavois in La Rochelle next month as you will find one of the best selection of multi-hulls in Europe.

If Admiral insists on toys, she'd love this one I looked at a few days ago.

MobileMe Gallery

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by freetime

How much weight do you think i can add in a outremer 42 or 45? for a longer cruise...?
Freydis 49 with twin steeringwheel is on my list, but it´s expensive...

I don´t know right now if i can go to the boatshow....

This is called the 'payload.' This link:
2003 Outremer Outremer 45 new used boats for sale dealers reviews boat classifieds says the Outremer 45 has a payload of 4480 pounds. Just google (boat name / length) and payload.

[BigCat]

Check out this article, regarding various issues in choosing among stock catamarans, and payload:

Cruising World - Join the Cat Crowd

[Adaero]

Originally Posted by freetime

How much weight do you think i can add in a outremer 42 or 45? for a longer cruise...?

As BigCat has kindly pointed out the Outremer has a payload of 4480Lbs or 2036Kg. I started a thread yesterday asking what weight everyone on average carries as cruising gear which so far has been A LOT!
From that 2036Kg you have to allow fuel at around 1kg per litre, water also at around the same, dinghy & outboard, safety equipment, galley equipment, personal items and so on.
On my boat excluding the large toys: -
Fuel 700 litres = 700kg max
Water 350 litres = 350kg max
Dink & Outboard = 100kg (If you want a 12ft and 20hp then double that)
General Equipment = 500kg
People = 4 x 80kg average 320Kg (I wish I was 80Kg or 176lbs)
Personal belongings = 2 x 50kg + 2 x 25kg = 150Kg
We are already up to 2120Kg (4664lbs) before you look at provisioning, spares and general junk we all end up carrying around.
If you want performance then you have to be very, very careful on the weight of everything you want on board.
Hopefully this will give you something to ponder on.
Best of luck with your search.

[Adaero]

Originally Posted by ldrhawke

If Admiral insists on toys, she'd love this one I looked at a few days ago.

MobileMe Gallery

Glad the Admiral didn't see the dishwasher, trash compactor, ice maker etc else I would have needed 30 knots of wind just to move my boat!!!

[fastcat435]

Originally Posted by Adaero

Glad the Admiral didn't see the dishwasher, trash compactor, ice maker etc else I would have needed 30 knots of wind just to move my boat!!!

Depending on the typoe of boat and how lightly it is built it is possible to put all these luxury items on board
I estimate that over 75 % of our customers have dishwashers , air conditioning , heaters and all the other goodies on board to make life even more pleasant on board .
Using lightweight items like a 25 kilo rigid inflatable and a 20 hp motor etc sure help in keeping the weight as low as possible.
It all boils down to keeping the original standard boat as light as is possible but this costs.
If anybody want to sped the extra bucks is a question I cannot answer and it has much to do with the type of trips made.
A world traveler will get more use out of a lightweight catamaran than what a weekend or vacation cruiser will get out of it.
Going 1 or 2 knots faster average does not mean all that much if the cruising is only 30 or 50 NM per day.
However if the trips are 5 or 10 days on the water it makes a huge difference.
I feel for a 42 to 47 ft cat a payload of 3500 kilos minimum is needed if it is a world cruiser
to be.

Greetings

Gideon

[Talbot]

Gideon,

Where do you get a 25kg RIB?????