Electric and Diesel comparison

[knottybuoyz]

Originally Posted by mikereed100

I find the discussion of the Ossalite system fascinating but I got a quote of about $60k for the 25kw genset and 2 20hp motors.

Yikes! You gotta be kidding! So much for the dream of a diesel/electric system for our little trawler project!

[jjtctaylor]

Mike,

True that's the price list I got $64520 for (2) 20Hp drives plus the genset, distribution box and touchscreen control panel. For my application I am getting off cheap at $41K Only (1) drive and smaller genset. The folks at Glacier Bay admit for a repower it is not yet cost competitive unless you have needs for an added genset and revamp of some other systems.

I am starting with a fresh plan so as they have reported, I expect the modest 5% upcharge on total boat costs. However along with electric drives, I will be considering electric oven/ range, on-demand electric hot water, etc, to maximize the flexibility of the OSSA power system.

Have to wait till they sort out issues with Asanagi. All agree unless you have other unique needs neither Solomon nor OSSA can yet beat the price on a repower. Take a lot of fuel costs to balance the steep initial capital.

Haven't talked with Ample Power so wonder if they can get "clean" voltage higher than 48V as I have a long span from genset to drive. 200 amp is still only 9.6KW and thus underpower the drive, plus not likely that is continuous 24 hours a day supply. Many marine gensets, especially the AC ones are designed for 3-5 hours max then rest. If they have 100hrs before filter change then you can be guaranteed those are not designed for long run. That's why OSSA derated their units, could not take full output 24/7.

JT

[TonyWest]

Guys,

I am not sure what the component pricing is on OSSA Powerlite (I'll ask the Glacier Bay guys to weigh in with the facts), but I can tell you the numbers that were offered at the Miami show for an equipped boat (i.e. complete package).

The show price offered by Moorings Private Yacht Sales for the standard Leopard 43 (equipped with twin 29HP diesels) was $399k, and the E43 (equipped with an OSSA Powerlite system - 25KW gen and 2x20HP motors) was $446k, both sans air.

On the surface, then, the E43 costs $47K more that the L43.

However, I probably would want to upgrade an L43 from 2x29HP to 2x40HP diesels, which would narrow the price gap considerably, and if there was any consideration of equipping the boats with air, the E43 only needs the airco units, whereas the L43 would need both aircos and an additional generator.

At that point, the prices are probably within shouting distance of each other on acquisition cost, but I'd think the E43 would rapidly pull ahead of the L43 on total operating cost because of its much lower maintenance.

On weights, (and using Yanmar specs as an example),

• 2 x Yanmar 30HP + drives (dry) weigh 586 lbs
• 2 x Yanmar 40HP + drives (dry) weigh 816 lbs
• 1 x OSSA 25KW gen + 2 x OSSA 20HP motors weight 838 lbs.

The OSSA system is a wash with the Yanmar 40 config, if the boats have no air. But if you add an additional gen to the L43 to support the air, then the OSSA system ends up lighter by quite a bit.

Hope this helps. I'll kick GB and see what they say on unit pricing. OSSA Powerlite is an integrated family of things, though, so if you're buying piece parts, I'd expect the price would be higher than an integrated package.

Tony

[gosstyla]

JT
Check it out carefully if you plan electric "on demand hot water" and expect it to be sufficent. I use mine as a feed to the hot water tank and that works but don't believe it would work for me as a stand along system. Mine will raise the temp about 30F at 2 gal per minute.

[jjtctaylor]

I concur and am running the numbers, watts vs temp rise. Might need to do the same with a small hot water tank and augment with on demand heating. But all in time,...... depending whether GB can resolve their bugs in high voltage DC conversions. AND get that all linked into their OSSA-Can NMEA 2000 like) system.

What happened to the Asanagi web site ? Wait daily on pins & needles for update cause GB is so slow with any info. Electro-mech engineer myself so know how many surprises can happen on new systems. Feedback loops, floating grounds, interferences, component failures all plague start-up ventures. So the daily log was an interesting read. Very surprised on the motor overheat and why over-propping would cause that. Watts in results in torque out. May not get max speed with a bad prop but not expect high temp. Wonder what happens with underprop. My original appeal was the water jackets on motor so high temp was a BIG surprise.

Did Tony see GB demonstrate full systems at the boat show and how well did the "other" devices behave ? Just a little bit shy on their whole concept if they are not willing yet to share price and specs on their EP-20 Air cond unit, reasonable range of gensets, motors and peripherals.

DO you detect a little bit of frustration ? At least Solomon has a published price list. Let us know if the Asanagi site comes back up. Thanks for you and Tony pioneering the way.

JT

[jjtctaylor]

Wow,

Glacier Bay managed to update their scrolling java-script on their OSSA website. Maybe they can spend a few more $$$ of the $8M New Enterprise money and add a genset, motor, controllers and other such details so us engineers can design things to fit.

Tony besides you (moorings/R&C) who are the other two vendors showcasing OSSA gear at the Miami show ? GB reports three suppliers on their website so maybe Moorings and R&C counts for two ? Alwoplast ?

JT

[gosstyla]

JT

Re Asanagi's website it was down about a week at the beginning of the month during a server upgrade but is and has been up since then.

Not sure what you are referring to about HVC DC conversion problems. I believe there were some about a year or so ago but as far as I know that has been resolved - I'm not having any problems.

Believe you misread my Log concerning the motors. The over propping and over heating are two separate problems. The propping is not causing the over heating.

GB has asked that I hold off on new props until the new motors are installed and tested with the current props. Then they will give me a final recommendation concerning the new props. Right before the Miami show Kevin thought the motors would ship last week. Today he said he would give me a new estimate when he gets back to the office Thursday.

Alwoplast was not at the Miami show this year.

[jjtctaylor]

Sorry lost track of the thread on the motors when the site went down, thus unaware of their recent findings.

Too bad for the wait from GB. Glacier Bay's contact page is now grouped under a sales address. Maybe that will take care of responses...... maybe not.

In the mean time could you help me get back to your site.....

I found the log.

www.gosstyla.com/ASANAGI/Valdivia%20Log.pdf

I found the specs, but cannot find the rest of the website. No portion of that address seems to work for me to get to the main or index page. Although I mostly check the log for what GB has found and fixed. THX in advance.

JT

[gosstyla]

JT
untitled

[gosstyla]

JT
one more time. The URL is: untitled

[jjtctaylor]

Thank you I got it via e-mail too. Interesting the link pops up a nice profile of your yacht. Looks very nice. Panama bound soon ? The competition to make electrics a common alternative will be based on value and reliability. GB is stiff on the cost component so hopefully they sort out the reliability of the system soon.

If this was a military contract and it had to work every time, wonder how they would approach the execution of validation testing.

From personal experience with DC servo's I know the controller boards are critical. Due to cost even the best have not sorted out subcomponent capability. Military specs throw out 90% of components for not meeting requirements. Thus the $250 hammer, or $5 resistor. Firmare which GB is working not only sets limits, speeds, acceleration, but also error traps situations due to errant or lost bits. Some portion of that firmware is diagnostic and if not working bad things happen. (even overheat) But bit errors are really hard to diagnose even for billion dollar companies. Thus the wait. But this won't be unique cause bit errors will change with variability in chip sets. The marine community will not see all the possibilities for years..... I throw away motor controller boards and motors regularly until I get a match that works well enough. Some portion of the motor may be at fault or the controller and have not found anyone who make a definitive diagnosis on which it is, cause chipset verification is not done prior to assembly.


GB should return with motors and cards that are a match. Tony may be lucky as a good matched set usually works for a long time. When one goes wrong it can be a pain to resolve. Anyway that's my experience with DC motors, designing high speed process machinery. 40-50 DC drives on one converting line. I see a lot of them. Firmware is critical to manage a suboptimal combo of solid state electronics. The companies that survive will be the ones who address this issue most effectively. Better chips or better firmware. Still like the idea..... so fingers crossed that they figure it out.

I would also suggest you ask them for 4-6 hours burn-in, running with normal load and if fail start burn-in again with new cards and/or motor. Then bring all of it to Valdivia. It saves me lots of initial misfortune from my suppliers. "The smoke test!" I also ask for a certificate in writing for temp, current draw, max rpm, etc. They should have that anyway to compare what happens on your boat. But GB should always supply that to any new purchase, not a spec but a run test. What do you think ?

JT

[Jackstee]

Ok Guy's and Gal's
Got the latest from Torqeedo.
Two 6hp electric outboards at 1730 euros each
All controls,battery cables, throttles etc for around 700.
So I can re engine the boat for 4206 euros.
Brilliant.
But
Unfortunately the Lithium batteries are 2850 each and I need 4.
Any Ideas.

Rgds

[gosstyla]

JT
Thanks, I agree.

Believe the current delay with the motors is just for the reasons you mentioned - they are testing. Don't believe they want to fly engineers back down to Valdivia if they can avoid it.

[mikereed100]

Gosstyla,

Just checked out your website. Congratulations on the boat. She's a beaut! I love the crows nest and beanbags.

Mike

[gosstyla]

Thanks Mike.

Plan to spend a lot of time in Caribbean, especially around Bocas del Toro - therefore the crows nest.

Beanbags and hamocks are my favorite way to lounge.