Dufour catamaran

[tuskie]

Originally Posted by Factor

It is not about sailing fast, it is about sailing.

Let me elaborate - now this was based on my part of the world, but the principles hold:


.

QUOTE:
Over the years in general sailing, racing, cruising my own boats and working in the industry one of the most frequent comments I hear relates to performance, particularly sailing performance. Often you will hear people indicate that as a cruiser sailing performance is not relevant to them, they are cruisers after all and not racing boats with racing crews. Why should they care about sailing performance.*

On the face of it that argument sounds feasible and even reasonable but like most cliched hackneyed phrases the reality is quite the opposite of the truism. Lets examine some fundamentals of cruising in our part of the world.*

Sensible cruising is done without too large an eye on schedules, yes there are times when you just have to get somewhere but the whole idea of cruising is to take life at a simple level. Cruising under sail, fairly self evidently involves sailing. Lets face it, unless you are sailing your sailing boat, you should have bought a motor boat. Sailing boats are very inefficient motor boats, if their hull shape is good for sailing its not so good for motoring, that mast is annoying and adds drag and doesn’t let you get some places and the sails, well they will pay for a lot of fuel.*

The weather is important to a sailor and all jokes aside the Bureau of Meteorology does a pretty good job along with a range of other providers in forecasts for 5 -7 days. There is little need to be significantly surprised, in a macro sense by the weather over a four to six day range. And that range will get you to a safe anchorage anywhere along the east cost of Australia.*

Speaking of the Bureau of Meteorology, they have a range of excellent tools for sailors; one of the key sources of actual recorded data for this article was the Average Wind Velocity maps (Bureau Home > Climate > Climate Data Online > Average wind velocity) along with weather station historical records.*

What my sailing experiences tell me and what the Bureau of Meteorology confirms is that the average wind speeds along the east coast of Australia are below 15 knots and mostly below 12 knots. Of course as cruisers we don’t leave safe harbour if its blowing stupid wind speeds, so by a combination of choice and nature the large majority of our sailing is done in light winds.*

What that means then is that if you own a boat that won’t effectively sail in 12 knots of wind or less then you own a motor sailer. What that means is that Performance is important to cruisers, perhaps more so that racers, performance to a cruiser means actually sailing whilst cruising and not motoring with the all the costs and frequent trips to marinas that is inherent in motorboat travel. Performance under sail is a cruisers life life performance under sail is a racers afternoon fun. If you need 20 knots to get going then you aren’t going to sail too much, at least in this part of the world.*

PERFORMANCE IS IMPORTANT - not in outright speed terms, but certainly in cruising sailing" END QUOTE

Sounds like sales BS.

You can use statistics for any purpose you wish, depending on your point of view. Let's look at the wind rose for "your part of the world". Here's a link.

Bureau of Meteorology - Wind Roses

Notice how there's "calm" for 12% of days of the year and less than 10 km/hr (approx 5 knots) for an even greater number of days.

Do performance catamarans sail adequately in these conditions? Or should the sales pitch be directed to sell motor cruisers?

Another "fact" in your sales blurb that I disagree with is that sailing hulls do, in fact make efficient motor boats. I know of several "motor cruisers" running very efficiently in what were designed to be sailing catamaran hulls. Minus that "annoying" mast.

[Factor]

Its not a sales blurb, its a sailors blurb.

As for the assertion that sail boat hulls make good motorboat, yes of course you can motor on them, but hull profiles for a purpose design 12 metre (/13/14/15)power cat will be very very different than those of a purpose designed 12 metre (/13/14/15)sailing cat. Purpose designed motor cat hulls will have much less rocker, flatter aft sections, far less surface in lateral resistance devices, for example.

[Barra]

Originally Posted by Factor

It is not about sailing fast, it is about sailing.

Let me elaborate - now this was based on my part of the world, but the principles hold:

"Of course as cruisers we don’t leave safe harbour if its blowing stupid wind speeds, so by a combination of choice and nature the large majority of our sailing is done in light winds.

What that means then is that if you own a boat that won’t effectively sail in 12 knots of wind or less then you own a motor sailer."

.

Yep my thoughts almost to a tee Factor.

Having sailed a more performance oriented cat for 5 years and everyone asking what my top speed was I kept saying the real advantage was that I was sailing at a decent clip in 6 or 7 knots of wind while most other cruisers were motoring.

Cruising was as much about the journey as the destination. Sailing in light winds if you can do it vastly improves your cruising experience. Thats the little secret the performance naysayers keep missing as they grimly motor between destinations in a "weather window"

BTW Im currently boatless again so im not biased (anymore)

[tuskie]

Originally Posted by Factor

Its not a sales blurb, its a sailors blurb.

As for the assertion that sail boat hulls make good motorboat, yes of course you can motor on them, but hull profiles for a purpose design 12 metre (/13/14/15)power cat will be very very different than those of a purpose designed 12 metre (/13/14/15)sailing cat. Purpose designed motor cat hulls will have much less rocker, flatter aft sections, far less surface in lateral resistance devices, for example.

The difference in hull shape is only necessitated because most "purpose designed " motor cats wish to achieve speeds of over 10 knots.

On another CF thread re electric motors, sailing catamaran owners and dreamers are crowing about the motoring efficiency of sailing cat hulls, so "of course you can motor on them" is a bit trite.

Looking at the wind rose of Brisbane Airport, you'd be doing that about 25% of the time.

[tuskie]

Originally Posted by Barra

Yep my thoughts almost to a tee Factor.

Having sailed a more performance oriented cat for 5 years and everyone asking what my top speed was I kept saying the real advantage was that I was sailing at a decent clip in 6 or 7 knots of wind while most other cruisers were motoring.

Cruising was as much about the journey as the destination. Sailing in light winds if you can do it vastly improves your cruising experience. Thats the little secret the performance naysayers keep missing as they grimly motor between destinations in a "weather window"

BTW Im currently boatless again so im not biased (anymore)

I'll wait for the performance figures, but I doubt the new Dufour cat will "sail at a decent clip in 6 or 7 knots" like you did.

My last passage south (yesterday) had strong N winds, so no motoring on this "weather window" for this "performance naysayer". The only grim bit was trying to get down to second reef when the winds went over 30 knots. Incidently, if the wind was 6 or 7 knots and your destination was DDW, what would have been your VMG? No motoring, of course!

[Barra]

Originally Posted by tuskie

I'll wait for the performance figures, but I doubt the new Dufour cat will "sail at a decent clip in 6 or 7 knots" like you did.

My last passage south (yesterday) had strong N winds, so no motoring on this "weather window" for this "performance naysayer". The only grim bit was trying to get down to second reef when the winds went over 30 knots. Incidently, if the wind was 6 or 7 knots and your destination was DDW, what would have been your VMG? No motoring, of course!

No the dufour will definitely not do that


Yes DDW was my slowest point of sail of course but 7 knots with the parasailor up we would be doing just under 4 knots and chilling on the tramp with just the sound of the water on the hulls below usually. Good times.

Of course I could have gybed to go faster under the assy too but for me at least the extra bit of speed wasnt worth the hassle in 7 knots. 10 knots maybe but not if im just chilling.

Usually motors only on in under 4 knots or in the harbour. Our last season on board we racked up a total of 40 engine hours over 4 months to give you the picture.

The advantage of a performance cat for cruising is more subtle than outright speed and that seems to get missed by many that haven't had the pleasure.

[yeloya]

Originally Posted by Valiente

I always thought L450 basically kept L440 hull lines and rig, upgrading interior and deckhouse.

Am I wrong on that?

Why that significant 15% diference in performance, being the older boat the better?

The numbers I've found on the internet suggest that the hulls of 440 and 450 are not the same. 440 is a bit shorter, much (2 tons..) lighter, carries a bit less of sail. Hull width to hull length ratio is never given but I tend to believe that 440 hulls are sleeker..

Cheers

Yeloya

[tuskie]

Originally Posted by Barra

The advantage of a performance cat for cruising is more subtle than outright speed and that seems to get missed by many that haven't had the pleasure.

The sensation of sailing on an easily driven catamaran is indeed a joy.

There are also drawbacks and disadvantages of performance catamarans to which this sailing joy must be balanced. This "performance" breed, whether production or home built, is more expensive than the heavier ( quote: "almost obese") alternative. It has far less payload for people, tankage, stores and equipment. It usually has less space, shade or helm protection; the attributes that contribute to "comfort". The lighter, performance cats are also more prone to flipping and so, arguably, are less safe.

From first impressions the new Dufour doesn't seem to be designed as a performance cat, so its no use criticising it for being somethingthat it wasn't meant to be. I hope those sailing this model will enjoy space, equipment levels, safety and comfort; attributes overlooked by those who haven't had the pleasure.

[arsenelupiga]

i give you 10 kn and performance cat where you can use as much sail as physically possible and have daggerboards as long as you want.

And will put you in confused seas say 1m which is nice average around east coast australia.

And you will motor or look like struggling cat doing 2 knots and ripping sails apart and make monohullers laugh

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Factor

It is not about sailing fast, it is about sailing.

Let me elaborate - now this was based on my part of the world, but the principles hold:

.

So if the condomaran matches or beats the "good" mono on most points of sail, it is sailing well and this is very common for condomarans. It might not pinch up as tight but will typically meet or beat them to the destination.

Of course, once you included the part about displacement sailing vessels being bad at motoring, it's hard to take seriously. A displacement hull is very efficient at motoring. Far better than your typical trawler designs. The only real difference is they spec the motor in a sailboat typically to provide slightly more than hull speed but they give a trawler enough to push a kt or two beyond, which is horribly inefficient (displacement trawlers that is).

There seem to be a small subset of cruisers with a racing background who seem offended that most cruisers see sail performance as at best a secondary consideration. As long as you can sail, make decent speed, and handle the expected sea conditions, they don't care if it can race.

[Barra]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

i give you 10 kn and performance cat where you can use as much sail as physically possible and have daggerboards as long as you want.

And will put you in confused seas say 1m which is nice average around east coast australia.

And you will motor or look like struggling cat doing 2 knots and ripping sails apart and make monohullers laugh

lol absolute rubbish!

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by smj

Hard to make a slow boat go fast, but easy to make a fast boat go slow

And it's hard to make a fast boat NOT go slow if you load it up for comfortable cruising unless you start piling on the $$$$$.

Sure, you can put the accommodations of a 45' boat on 65' hulls and it will carry the same loads and be much faster but you will pay up front and every time you need something done based on hull length (slip fees, haul out, bottom paint, wax job, etc...) You can do similar with carbon fiber door knobs at massive up front expense.

If you simply take a 45' boat and make the hulls narrow so it goes fast, you either have to give up accommodations, amenities and live a very spartan lifestyle (comparatively) or you kill all that performance and possibly create an unseaworthy slug by overloading it.

There is no free lunch and since your typical condomaran will meet or beat a comparable monohull, the average buyer is quite happy to take all those evil amenities and give up performance.

If people really bought into the speed sells, manufacturers would be flocking to put out speed demons but in reality, it's a niche market with a few manufacturers feeding stories about how you won't be happy unless we strip out the amenities and make the boat fast.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Barra

lol absolute rubbish!

i agree, not good conditions for cat.

Unlike sailing protected behind island or in med first hour wind picks up as there is no swell.

[Barra]

Originally Posted by tuskie

The sensation of sailing on an easily driven catamaran is indeed a joy.

There are also drawbacks and disadvantages of performance catamarans to which this sailing joy must be balanced. This "performance" breed, whether production or home built, is more expensive than the heavier ( quote: "almost obese") alternative. It has far less payload for people, tankage, stores and equipment. It usually has less space, shade or helm protection; the attributes that contribute to "comfort". The lighter, performance cats are also more prone to flipping and so, arguably, are less safe.

From first impressions the new Dufour doesn't seem to be designed as a performance cat, so its no use criticising it for being somethingthat it wasn't meant to be. I hope those sailing this model will enjoy space, equipment levels, safety and comfort; attributes overlooked by those who haven't had the pleasure.

Yes all cats indeed boats are a compromise. nothing new here. we all know that.

This all started from the usual drivel of "i dont need performance i dont want to go fast" earlier on this thread.

Factor just pulled him up on it and the quote was so well put i agreed -

"its not about sailing fast its about sailing"

Well said!

[rom]

Originally Posted by yeloya

The numbers I've found on the internet suggest that the hulls of 440 and 450 are not the same. 440 is a bit shorter, much (2 tons..) lighter, carries a bit less of sail. Hull width to hull length ratio is never given but I tend to believe that 440 hulls are sleeker..

Cheers

Yeloya

AFAIK there has always been one light displacement (EEC) weight for the L440 and that is 12.15t. These days L450F/S gets 15.5, 16.9 and 14.9.... whichever you pick makes a little more than 2 tons !

@Valiente: L440 & L450 are 2 very different boats !

Regarding the Dufour 48, it is obviously a big heavy comfortable condomaran that will compete with Lagoon, Leopard, etc ... so one shall not worry about the performance, it is just not the point.
Now, I am getting a bit more skeptical about comfort in say small short period waves: the weigth is so much at the back (the bimini is alsmot above water!) makes me wonder about hobby horsing. That is a general trend in condomaran, using as much of the available space, maybe being so heavy overall prevents them from hobbyhorsing too much ...